Laura Jayes, Host: Penny Wong, thanks so much for your time. Does Australia still fully support the US actions in Iran?
Penny Wong, Minister for Foreign Affairs: We've been clear for some time that we believed a de-escalation and a ceasefire was necessary and the Prime Minister made that clear some time ago. And the reason for that is of course ultimately the hip-pocket effect that we've seen in Australia, with so many Australians feeling the pinch as a consequence of this war. But more globally, obviously global energy markets have been impacted. We all want to see stability return.
Jayes: And we're not seeing that. We're seeing the exact opposite of that at the moment. It looks like we are on the brink of war. Donald Trump calling the Iranians scum. Is the ceasefire over?
Foreign Minister: It's certainly been fraying around the edges for some time, hasn't it? And I think that's a concern to everybody who is affected by it, which is the majority of the global economy. We do want to see stability, we do want to see negotiations, we want the Iranians to be reasonable and we want to see stability return to energy markets across the world.
Jayes: What do you say to Australians? Because they're paying for this war at the moment, looks like they'll be paying for this war for years to come. So, it's important whether Australia does fully support these actions in the United States, doesn't it?
Foreign Minister: I think we all understand the risk to global peace and security that the Iranian regime represents. They facilitated and orchestrated attacks in Australia on Australian soil, which has led to us asking the Ambassador to leave and the listing of the Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist group. Now, what I would say is we do know that, but we are at a point where really Australia and the world is wanting to see stability return to the region. And we all have lived through the effect this has had on global markets. Obviously, we work very hard as a government to assure fuel supplies for Australia, engaging with the countries of the region, diversifying our supply chains, and that has meant we've seen fuel continue to come into Australia, fertiliser continue to come into Australia. But this is very disruptive to the global economy and to Australians at the bowser.
Jayes: Yes. All eyes on the Strait of Hormuz, as it has been for the last couple of months. Let's bring the issue back closer to home. Right now, Modi is in town, obviously. Australia has done a record export deal with India on uranium. Is it hypocritical of your government, given we don't support nuclear energy in Australia, or your government, more accurately, doesn't support nuclear energy?
Foreign Minister: If I can just first make the point, this has been a landmark week in Australian foreign policy. We had the alliance with Fiji, we had the alliance with Papua New Guinea come into force. And now we have the visit by Prime Minister Modi with a range of announcements across the board, whether it's science and technology, defence, energy, which you've spoken about, sport, or many other areas. In terms of uranium, I'd make this point. This has been an agreement which has been in place actually since 2015, that Australia would undertake these sales, but we haven't been able to operationalise it. We now have all the safeguards that are required to enable Australia's uranium export. In terms of domestic energy, every country makes a decision about its energy profile, where it's going to maximise its resources. We know what the energy authorities have told us, that the fastest, cheapest way to expand the production of energy in Australia, to have the least impact on bills, is through the expansion of renewables with batteries and gas for firming. That's why we're going down this path.
Jayes: No one's got cheaper bills than they were 5 or even 10 years ago. They just seem to be going up.
Foreign Minister: Well why is that, Laura?
Jayes: Because renewables may be cheaper in the future but they're not cheaper now.
Foreign Minister: The reason we've had energy prices be as bad as they have been is because over the period of the previous government, energy exited the system but little energy came into the system. We had coal fired power stations telegraphing that they were going to be closed. So, they were saying ‘we're going to get out’. We didn't have a plan to bring more energy into the system. That is what the Government has been working on. We know nuclear ultimately will cost more. Taxpayers will be required to fund it for a very long time and it won't be feasible or operational or commercially viable for some time. I think Peter Dutton went to the last election and Australians made their view pretty clear about the nuclear energy plan that was going to cost them money. We've got a lot more work to do on energy. We know that and we are doing it.
Jayes: The only point, and I don't want to get stuck on this topic because we've got plenty to talk about, but the only thing I would say to that is taxpayers are funding and subsidising renewables now. So, every part of our energy system is subsidised. At any point would you consider facilitating Parliament deciding to lift the moratorium on nuclear energy and then let the market decide
Foreign Minister: I don't think the market has indicated any desire to go down the nuclear energy path. There's a lot of ideology here. The market has also not wanted to invest in coal fired power. These decisions are being made by the private sector which is looking at what is going to be viable and profitable over many years. We've got a transition underway. It's obviously a big challenge to shift from coal-fired power as our primary source over time, but that is what we are doing.
Jayes: Okay, let's talk about a few other things, not unrelated, I might say. Angus Taylor has really taken aim, shots fired at One Nation overnight. He said that One Nation with their policy platform would send this country broke, saying these policies are inflationary. Do you agree?
Foreign Minister: I think One Nation has no policy answers. It just stokes anger. But what we also know is One Nation fundamentally wants to work with the other right-wing parties, including Angus Taylor's against the Labor Party. They are clear. They are a small-C coalition, a coalition of right-wing parties: the Libs, the Nationals and One Nation. It's very clear what their agenda is and it does consistently involve cuts to the things that working Australians rely on. And I'm in the Senate with Pauline Hanson and One Nation has consistently voted against cost-of-living relief. It's voted against increases to the minimum wage. So, I find it pretty difficult to differentiate sometimes between Liberal cuts and One Nation's approach.
Jayes: Well, Angus Taylor is trying to do that with this. Just back on that fundamental point: some of these policies from One Nation, do you agree, would send the country broke?
Foreign Minister: I don't think they're economically responsible. I think they have no answers. They only stoke anger and division. I don't think we’re made stronger by making each other angry or turning Australians against each other.
Jayes: Okay, just one final question here. Anthony Albanese made a couple of jokes on a podcast last week and here we are still talking about it. One was about the Japanese Prime Minister bringing a, quote, couple of melons. Has that caused you any problems as Foreign Minister? Has anyone in DFAT raised this with you? Anyone on the Japanese side?
Foreign Minister: No, but what I would say is the Prime Minister has made his apology public and clear and I think the matter has been resolved.
Jayes: Do you think the Prime Minister's podcast appearance was sexist, misogynistic, in bad taste, cringy, A,B,C or D, or all of the above?
Foreign Minister: I think the Prime Minister has apologised unequivocally and that matter is now closed.
Jayes: Okay, Penny, do you understand that many people would expect that you might have a different reaction and be perhaps less understanding if this was a conservative Prime Minister making those comments, is that a fair point to raise?
Foreign Minister: I think that when someone apologises unequivocally, I try to tell my children, you should be gracious when people apologise.
Jayes: Penny Wong, thank you so much for your time.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you.