Laura Jayes: Foreign Minister, thanks so much for making the time for us here in D.C. There are a few niggles in the alliance at the moment. Have you been able to make any real progress on this trip?
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: I had a really good meeting yesterday with Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, and he obviously expressed regret for the meeting having to be rescheduled between the President and the Prime Minister. And we agreed to work together on rescheduling the meeting. So, I'm looking forward to that happening.
Laura Jayes: Ok, so what assurances did you get? When is the PM going to meet with the President? Is it going to be at the White House around summit season? Any more details?
Foreign Minister: As the Prime Minister has said, you know, we're obviously very flexible about those arrangements. The President is a very, very busy man. But I was pleased that Secretary Rubio made clear that, you know, obviously that they're keen for a meeting. They want to reschedule it. It was disappointing as he said, that they had to reschedule because the President had to return as a consequence of what was occurring in the Middle East.
Laura Jayes: Noted. Okay, let's talk about Marco Rubio and his comments ahead of the Quad talks yesterday. He basically said he wants less talk and more action when it comes to critical minerals. Is it too much to say that that was a bit of a gift to us because we've got a lot of leverage there, don't we, on critical minerals. Are we using it?
Foreign Minister: Well, you might recall during the election campaign, the Prime Minister spoke about this and spoke about creating a critical minerals reserve. And we do recognise this is a strategic asset to Australia, but also to our partners and to our principal strategic partner and ally, the United States. So, you know, Australia has a great many of the world's critical minerals. We have a capacity not just to mine them, but also to process them. We're already doing that and we can do more.
Laura Jayes: But is that a quid pro quo for tariffs, potentially preferential access to our minerals for some relief on tariffs?
Foreign Minister: Well, first on tariffs, let's remember, you know, we have a- The US has a trade surplus with us, you know, whilst -
Laura Jayes: We keep on reminding them.
Foreign Minister: Well, I think it's an important set of facts –
Laura Jayes: I do too.
Foreign Minister: – to continue to talk about, because, you know, there's a lot of benefit to the United States from the free tariff arrangements that exist under our Free Trade Agreement. But look, we see the strategic benefit in critical minerals. We recognise that, you know, assuring those supply chains is important for Australia, it's important for the US it's important for allies and partners. So, of course the Quad did discuss this, and we have more work to do on how that might work with the United States and with friends and partners.
Laura Jayes: But they're interested?
Foreign Minister: They are interested, and we are interested.
Laura Jayes: Okay good. You noted yesterday that Secretary Rubio - or I note that you said - Rubio yesterday did not raise defence spending with you. How significant is that? Is that a sign that they no longer want to pursue that with Australia? There are other matters at hand? Because it was only a couple of months ago that Hegseth raised that with Richard Marles.
Foreign Minister: Look, we had a lot to talk about and obviously we live in a region which, as Secretary Rubio said, is being reshaped, and the future of the 21st century will be defined by that reshaping. So, obviously we have a lot to talk about. In relation to Defence. I've said, the Prime Minister said, Richard Marles has said, we take a capability-based approach to funding. We have the largest peacetime increase in defence funding in Australia's history. The circumstances are such, I know there were, will be more capability required. I think we all understand that and we will fund the capability that Australia needs.
Laura Jayes:. So, is there significance in him not raising with that yesterday or am I looking too much into this?
Foreign Minister: Well, I can only report that from the meeting, obviously, there's a lot to discuss, and you know, I appreciate that, you know, the focus of some discussions. But the focus yesterday was on much more on what we can do together and also on AUKUS and you know that's a, that's a win-win or win-win-win, it’s a good deal.
Laura Jayes: Well, you said it was well understood AUKUS yesterday. Well understood in terms of the importance of that pact. Australia's geography I think is far more important to the USA, whether they're kind of talking about that upfront or not. But could the trade off actually be here, not an AUKUS review or any changes to that security pact, but could it be more forced posture in Australia?
Foreign Minister: I think it's more both geography and capability is what I'd say to you. And in fact that's one of the benefits of AUKUS. The geographic location of Fleet Base West and the additional capability that that will provide, that is more maintenance for American submarines. That translates to more days in the water for US submarines. So, one of the great things about the AUKUS arrangements is it increases the capability of all three countries and certainly in the near and medium term, it's a benefit to the US because it increases both the build rates but also maintenance rates and that equals submarine capability in the water.
Laura Jayes: We are a little bit flappable over this review of AUKUS here in 2025. I do note we're not due to get the first Virginia-class submarine until, in the 2030s, so it could be, you know, five to seven years away. Do we just need to calm down a little bit because it'll be a different President then. Does this review even really matter seven years before?
Foreign Minister: Well, first I'd make the point it's quite rational that a new administration would review this arrangement just as the British did. That's the first point I'd make. The second point I'd make is exactly the one you're referencing, which is this is a multi-decade task. Governments, Foreign Ministers, Defence Ministers, Prime Ministers, Presidents, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defences of all colours over many decades will have to deliver this and we're going to have to work together and we're determined to do that.
Laura Jayes: Right. Just quickly, on a few other things, you would have seen how Trump dealt with Canada over their digital services tax. Now, we don't have that, but we do have a news media bargaining code. How do you view that? Because does it mean with this president in the White House, that we can give up any, any hope that the tech companies will actually pay their fair share of tax in Australia?
Foreign Minister: Look, we're determined to continue with this policy framework and, you know the reasons why. This is not a revenue-raising exercise. It really does go to enabling content for consumers and ensuring that journalists and content creators, you know, have appropriate remuneration and that is an important thing for any democracy.
Laura Jayes: But also paying the fair share of tax. We know that multi tax, multinational tax shifting is one of the things that hurts our budget so much. I mean, successive governments have spoken about it. Tech bros here in the US are really in Trump's ear. They're hugely influential. How does that sit with you?
Foreign Minister: Look, you know, Australia will take an approach on taxation that we believe is in our national interests. Obviously, there are always people with different views. We believe in a reasonable tax system and that's what we'll continue to implement.
Laura Jayes: It's always said, Penny, that the alliance is bigger than any one individual in the White House or at Parliament House in Canberra. But do you think Donald Trump is challenging that conventional wisdom?
Foreign Minister: There's no doubt that President Trump envisages a very different role for America in the world. I've been upfront about. And we respect that. That's what the American people voted for. And so we have to navigate that and we have to think about what is it Australia brings to the US and to the alliance in this context, and I think we bring a great deal in terms of our region, in terms of what we do in our region and what we do in the world.
Laura Jayes: It's the most distant, though, our alliance has ever been, wouldn't you say?
Foreign Minister: I don't agree with that.
Laura Jayes: When's another time in history where it's been - you know, I'm not subscribing to this idea that it's a disaster at the moment, but it does seem distant. We don't have that rapport that we've seen in recent decades. When’s another time in history that you can point to that you've seen the alliance this distant?
Foreign Minister: I don't. I don't agree with that. I mean, this is my second time in Washington in six months. We've had two Quad meetings here. Richard's been here, Jim Chalmers, the Treasurer has been here. The Prime Minister's had three very constructive conversations with the President. So, I don't agree with your characterisation. We understand that obviously the Middle East has been taking a lot of focus by world leaders. I think we all understand that.
Laura Jayes: But yesterday, you said before the Quad meeting, unfortunately, we meet against a backdrop of conflict and escalating competition. America is becoming a bit of a competitor, isn't it? Economically at least. Do you ever fully trust your competitor?
Foreign Minister: Well, I think America is the world's great power and we recognise our role and we recognise the US role. You know, we're a middle power. We believe it's important to continue to trade with our region and trade with the rest of the world. That's been the basis of Australian prosperity for a long time. We also believe that we are better in the alliance, we are stronger in the alliance, and that we are pulling our weight in the alliance and we will continue to demonstrate that.
Laura Jayes: We certainly are always seen as someone, a country that punches above our weight. Long may that continue.
Foreign Minister, finally, I've just seen that Trump has posted on Truth Social that Israel has agreed to the “necessary conditions” for a 60-day ceasefire in Gaza. What would those “necessary conditions” be, do you think?
Foreign Minister: Well, you know, that's a matter for the President, for Israel to articulate, should they wish. But can I just make this point? We all want a ceasefire in Gaza. We want a ceasefire, we want the hostages released, and if the President can land that, I think the whole world will be very pleased. And so, you know, I hope that the work that the administration is doing does lead to a ceasefire and humanitarian aid to flow and the hostages coming home.
Laura Jayes: Yeah. And long after 60-days as well. Indeed. Foreign Minister. Thanks so much for your time. Great to see you.