Anna Henderson, host: Minister, thanks for joining SBS here in New York.
Penny Wong, Minister for Foreign Affairs: Good to be with you.
Henderson: You'll have a chance, no doubt, this week to at least cross paths with your US and Iranian counterparts. What message will you be trying to send about how much Australians are hurting?
Foreign Minister: Well, every time Australians fill up at the bowser, they are paying the cost of this conflict and it's a cost that's being paid across the world. We've been saying for a very long time now that we want to see the situation resolved, we want to see talks resume, and we want to see the impact on global energy markets dialled down. And that's what we're seeing at the moment, continued impact on global energy markets. It's flowing through to our economy.
Henderson: Are you expecting to have one-on-one engagements with your US and Iranian counterparts?
Foreign Minister: We always have a lot of bilaterals, and we also often see people at different meetings, so we'll see. Whatever happens, my message will be the same.
Henderson: The Palestinian Authority representative was blocked from coming here. He wasn't granted a visa. Do you think that's a shame?
Foreign Minister: We welcome continued engagement with the Palestinian Authority, because ultimately we believe that the only way to assure peace and stability in the Middle East, the only way to assure security for both Israelis and Palestinians, and for the broader region, is for there to be two states. I did speak to my counterpart in the PA last week before coming here, because I did think it was important for us to, a year on after the recognition of the state of Palestine, along with many others, to continue to engage at Foreign Minister level.
Henderson: Given what's at stake here, do you think it would have been better at this Leaders Week to have the representative of the Palestinian Authority here?
Foreign Minister: We welcome dialogue and we want engagement at the UN. That's the way we will approach this.
Henderson: Do you really see them as having a chance now online, to have a seat at the table?
Foreign Minister: Well, that is how we approached it last year. So as a consequence of their exclusion, arrangements were made both at the General Assembly and in other meetings for online attendance. I'd anticipate that that will continue.
Henderson: Last time Australia was able to use its Security Council seat to get justice for the Australian victims of MH-17. What do you think could be achieved for other alleged victims of war, like Zomi Frankcom?
Foreign Minister: We are determined to continue to advocate for justice for Zomi Frankcom, for her family, and for her colleagues at World Central Kitchen. We think that the approach that has been taken by the Israeli authorities has been outrageous, and I've made that clear.
Henderson: Do you expect, though, this week to make it clear in person to your Israeli counterpart?
Foreign Minister: As I said, we'll see which bilaterals are finalised, but our position has been made clear, and I've spoken to him directly about this.
Henderson: Today, the Prime Minister was asked about Australia's record on Indigenous youth incarceration and what the UN has recently found in regards to that. You've been pushing for a seat on the United Nations Security Council. But do you think Australia's human rights record is tarnished by this reality?
Foreign Minister: You and I both know, I think two things are true, one is that we are a continent where we have seen the oldest continuing civilisation on Earth, and we should be and are very proud of that. The second is, we know that we have a lot more to do as a country to achieve, not only reconciliation in word, but in practice. But as importantly, to close the gap between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians, and we know there is more work to do, and we will continue that work.
Henderson: But do you think it is tarnishing Australia's record on human rights?
Foreign Minister: We argue for human rights abroad, and we argue for human rights at home, and we continue to press for the closing of the gap between First Nations Australians and others.
Henderson: Given Russia and the US have veto powers on the Security Council, do you understand those who hold the view that campaigning for this seat is essentially redundant? What's the point?
Foreign Minister: Because the world matters to Australia. Because we are not– We might be distant from New York, but we are not distant from the rest of the world, and the world does have an effect on what happens in our economy, in our lives. You talked before about petrol prices. That's just one example. So what I would say is we want to be able to advocate for Australia's interests in every forum that matters, and the UN Security Council matters.
Henderson: Do you believe international law has been degraded in recent years?
Foreign Minister: I believe that international law is under a great deal of pressure, and I also believe that the way to respond to that is for countries to come together to continue to press for, to advocate for the observance of international law. Because you've got kind of two options, don't you. You can throw your hands up and say, "I give up", or you can say this actually matters to many countries, countries like Australia. We're not a superpower, but we have a– we're a power– we're a country with substance and power, work with others to try and ensure that we hold on to the rules that matter. That's what the Declaration for the Protection of Humanitarian Personnel is. It is two thirds of the United Nations coming together and saying, "We believe that the Geneva Conventions, we believe that the protection of humanitarian workers, matters to the international community."
Henderson: Given that middle power status, do you want to see Australia push within the United Nations Security Council to get rid of the veto power?
Foreign Minister: We've had a long-standing position as a country of reform of veto. And, you know, we know it's been misused previously. I mean, what happened in relation to Russia's invasion of Ukraine was that a permanent member of the Security Council used its veto to prevent any action being taken for its own breach of the charter. I mean, that was an example where we would like reform. So we are for reform, but we are also, you know, we're very practical people. We also recognise, back to your previous question, rules need to be upheld. The UN needs to be reformed. We want to make sure where it really matters, that we continue to be part of setting the direction about that reform.
Henderson: And in that vein, do you think it would be possible for a country like Australia to hold to account a country like the U.S. over some of the accusations that it's faced around the war with Iran, the strikes, the Maduro arrest, for example?
Foreign Minister: Well, I've been asked about that, and I've responded. But I again would say we have to work out as an international community what are the rules we really want to hold on, to that matter to us. I've talked about the Geneva Conventions. I think trading arrangements matter to us. They certainly matter to Australia, and we've been very clear about our difference with the Trump administration on that.
Henderson: European diplomats have expressed some concern that Australia didn't sign up to those broader sanctions on the West Bank, along with like-minded partners. We've worked in lockstep with the UK and with the European countries in the past. Were we asked to sign on? Why did you say no?
Foreign Minister: I would make 2 points. One is, of course, we'll continue to work closely with our like-minded countries, just as we did a year ago, where with others we recognise the State of Palestine, which, with many others, was part of the precursor to the peace plan, which we want to also see implemented. What I would say is this. I've announced already that we would engage in targeted sanctions. I would note that no country that has announced it would engage in these sanctions on a blanket basis, has yet implemented them. And we certainly will be working with them as they do that to understand how they intend to deal with that.
Henderson: Do you have any ambition to sign on to that position?
Foreign Minister: I have a very clear intention of engaging in more action to try and counter settlements which are an obstacle to peace, but are also, particularly with the E1 settlement, engaging in behaviour which makes two states less likely.
Henderson: Is the action that you take only going to target individuals?
Foreign Minister: Well, we'll work through that in the same way as the UK and others who have announced that they intend to do this. I think they've given themselves six months in order to finalise this.
Henderson: You understand that they were disappointed.
Foreign Minister: Well, I'll talk directly to Ed when I see him, in I think the three or four meetings. And what I would say is, we work very closely together.
Henderson: Has the United States asked Australia to join its boycott and sanctions against the International Criminal Court?
Foreign Minister: Well, Australia has made its position on the ICC clear.
Henderson: Do you think that these U.S. actions are conducive to peace and international law?
Foreign Minister: I speak for Australia.
Henderson: You don't want to go there.
Foreign Minister: Well, I speak for Australia, and we've made our position on the ICC clear.
Henderson: Can you tell me what it is?
Foreign Minister: We support the independence of the ICC, and we're a party to the Rome Statute. Those positions are not changing.
Henderson: Are you concerned about the pressure the U.S. is putting on other players here?
Foreign Minister: You can ask me all the questions you like, and you're going to get me very clearly saying the same, articulating the same position, on behalf of Australia in relation to the International Criminal Court that I have for years.
Henderson: In terms of artificial intelligence, you turn on every television station here in the U.S. and everybody is talking about AI and what is at stake. If Australia is successful with this Security Council seat, humanity could be facing an existential wipeout, according to some of these concerns. What is at stake here, and would you push for international controls of autonomous weapons and AI tech?
Foreign Minister: What I said at the Lowy Institute remains my view. You know, that AI will reshape our world, reshape our economies, reshape our societies, and reshape national power in ways that we have not seen. And it will be more disruptive and faster in that disruption than any previous technology. So it brings enormous risks and enormous benefits. We're not going to deal with those risks or gain those benefits by looking away. What we have to do is lean in and to work out how companies, nation states, and internationally, we deal with it. Now obviously, the Prime Minister's been with you, I think, talking to companies about this. We've seen some of what has been said there in terms of nation states. Australia's already announced, in the Prime Minister's speech in July, the AI standards that we want to put in place. And yes, the international community does need to work out how we deal with this technology, so that it can be shaped for the good of humanity. But ignoring it is not an option for any country, and certainly not for Australia.
Henderson: Does that lack of regulation of autonomous weapons right now keep you up at night?
Foreign Minister: Lots of things keep me up at night, but when I spoke at the UN Security Council, I think was last year, I talked about the risks of AI in in the defence context, and we do want to make sure, that was one of the areas where obviously there's great risks.
Henderson: Just finally, Minister, we're here in New York. You're going to be meeting all of these world leaders and your counterparts. But when you reflect on your time in the role, do you think Australia has more or less influence over the United States than when you first came to government?
Foreign Minister: I think we are, well I think we are more influential in the world and in our region than before we came to government. And I think we speak as a consequence of that with more weight in our relationship with all countries, including with the United States. Obviously, President Trump envisages a different role for the U.S. I think we all understand that.
Henderson: Minister, thank you for your time.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you.