Kieran Gilbert, Host: Foreign Minister, thank you for your time. I know you've just got to New York for the United Nations. Why, in your words, are we running for this seat on the Security Council?
Penny Wong, Minister for Foreign Affairs: Because what happens in the world affects Australia at home and we want to be able to better advocate, have more influence in a world where we know there's a lot of disruption, a lot of contest and a lot of competition.
Gilbert: I know we won't talk domestic politics, but Labor is battling with a whole range of issues and it's showing up in the polls. But to Australians who are wondering, why is this relevant to me? Why is it relevant to an average person at home struggling on a range of fronts to see us running for a seat at the Security Council?
Foreign Minister: Sure. I guess the first point I'd make is every time we go to a petrol station at the moment and you try to fuel up and you see the price of petrol where it is, that's as a consequence of what is happening in the global economy. So, I make that point because it's a reminder that we can't ignore the rest of the world. The rest of the world does affect what happens in Australia and we want the opportunity to have more influence, particularly at a time where the world is pretty disruptive.
Gilbert: It is indeed. But, I mean, you say in that campaign video that we've got to support the rules of the road and double down on it. But many people would be saying, why? It's chaos.
Foreign Minister: Well, that's probably precisely why you have to actually make sure that countries work together to uphold the rules that matter. Look, this is a time of change. None of us are naive. We understand this is a time where the world is changing and the UN will need to change, does need to change. But what we also know is a world that is ruled by power alone is not going to be in accordance with Australia's interests. That's not a world that we do best in. We do best in a world where there are rules that govern how we deal with each other. For example, trade. Australia has advanced greatly because we're a great trading nation and we've utilised a global trading system with transparent rules in order to improve our national position and to improve incomes in Australia.
Gilbert: The seat that we're running for is 29, 30. It's after the next federal election. If we have a Prime Minister Taylor or a Prime Minister Hanson, would you still think it's a good thing for Australia to have this position? Would it be just as important for Australia to have this position?
Foreign Minister: I'm campaigning for a Labor Government, obviously. And, you know, we will want to continue to do in the world what we've been doing, which is to focus on, certainly our region, on relationships, on the rules and our resilience and to bring that perspective to the Security Council. What I would say is the sort of chaos that One Nation and the Coalition would bring to Australia would be damaging to us at home and in the world.
Gilbert: So, it does matter who in terms of this position as well?
Foreign Minister: It always matters who wins government. It always matters who governs. Governments are about what sort of country we are.
Gilbert: You've been making a big push for the protection of aid workers. A global declaration to protect aid workers after the tragic death of Zomi Frankcom. You've got, I think it's over 130 nations signed up. What are you doing this week to try and turn that sentiment into concrete action?
Foreign Minister: You're right. As you know, we developed this after the death of Zomi Frankcom, the killing of Zomi Frankcom. And we spoke to her family about it, and we spoke to countries both in the region and beyond about it. International humanitarian law is one of the great achievements of humanity. We came together after World War II and after World War I, and we made decisions about rules applying in war. And one of them is that we make sure that those who care for the wounded, those who care for civilians, those who care for those who need it are protected. That is one of the rules. And so it is, at the moment, one of the rules that is not being sufficiently observed. We need to do more about it. So yes, we've got two thirds of the UN signed up. We want that political support. We want to embed it in the UN architecture. We want to do practical things like train humanitarian workers about the blast radius. We want to invest in databases. So, where there are breaches, there's more accountability. So, that's what we'll be talking to my counterparts about. And we've got an event on that this week along with many other events that I'm attending.
Gilbert: That's a priority for you?
Foreign Minister: That's a priority for me personally.
Gilbert: On the EU talking about Canada being an associate member potentially of the EU. Australia's been mentioned by some as well. Does that make sense to you?
Foreign Minister: We already engage very closely with the European Union. In fact, I'll be going to another meeting, a number of meetings here this week with them to talk about matters of common interest which include what's happening in each of our spheres and what's happening to the global rules-based system. We have already two very important agreements with the European Union. The first is obviously the trade agreement, but the second is also the Security and Defence Partnership which I signed with Kaja Kallas, which really grounds the sort of relationship we want to have, recognises how we can help each other, how we can engage, but also recognises we're both operating in different regions.
Gilbert: So, the associate member idea seems a bit, is that a bit far-fetched in Australia? We are on the other side of the planet.
Foreign Minister: I think we have an architecture that I think is really fit for purpose and we certainly are going to use it for the benefit of Australia.
Gilbert: You're focusing on the Pacific, on ASEAN?
Foreign Minister: I've made clear in the four Rs region first, relationships, rules and resilience. And we start with our region. I'll certainly be engaging with both ASEAN and the Pacific Islands Forum members here.
Gilbert: On that front, they've been pushing, a lot of those smaller states to take – the International Court of Justice last year made a ruling on climate and in similar terms, I guess in the humanitarian world, they want to take the rhetoric into substance. Will you help them do that in terms of taking that sort of rhetoric, supporting the smaller states into actual concrete action?
Foreign Minister: I think Australia's always done that. I think Australia traditionally has sought to elevate the voices of the Pacific Islands Forum and Pacific Island countries. Certainly when I was climate Minister, that's one of the things we did and is one of the things that Chris Bowen is doing and certainly will be doing that here.
Gilbert: Finally, the big meeting this week is Trump and Xi, later in the week. Is there a sense that the rest of the people here - the diplomats, the ministers, government leaders - are bit players? They're the two that count, Trump and Xi, and they're meeting just down the road here in the United States later in the week, that's the meeting that counts, isn't it?
Foreign Minister: It's a very important meeting and the great powers always matter. And I hope what we see out of that is clearer guardrails, particularly in the context of artificial intelligence but more generally. But we, as the Prime Minister said last year, peace and stability cannot only be built by great powers. They require all of us, including middle powers like Australia. And that's why we're running for a seat on the Security Council.
Gilbert: You can still have an influence?
Foreign Minister: You have to have an influence. Otherwise we all just sit back and hope.
Gilbert: Foreign Minister, appreciate your time.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you.