PALKI SHARMA, HOST: The Indo‑Pacific is in a flux, new alignments, old anxieties in a region where every word has consequences. In this backdrop, how is the India-Australia relationship shaping up? To discuss that and more, I have with me the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Australia, Ms Penny Wong. Minister Wong, welcome to Firstpost.
PENNY WONG, FOREIGN MINISTER: It's great to be here.
PALKI SHARMA: You've talked about all the things I discussed, but first, I want to ask you, how is the bilateral relationship after India beating Australia, decimating Australia in both the men's and women's cricket?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Oh, that's harsh, very harsh. Well, you know, congratulations, and as you said, you know, your women and men both did really well, but you know, we'll be back. We'll be back.
PALKI SHARMA: Is that something that comes up in conversations?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Cricket often comes up, and obviously in Australia we're pretty focused on the cricket, but then we're about to go into our summer, so we will have the test series as well. But that was a great result, particularly for your women, I think, yeah.
PALKI SHARMA: Would you call India your most reliable partner, strategic partner in the Indo-Pacific today?
FOREIGN MINISTER: We think India is a critical, our critical strategic partner, and what we would say is this, you know, you said that, I think, in your introduction, we have old anxieties. I think there are a few new anxieties, and so at a time of uncertainty and change, our strategic convergence is ever more important, and our partnership is ever stronger. We want to be a reliable partner for India, we recognise India is a leading power in the region, a leading power in the world, fastest‑growing large economy, and is critical to stability in our region.
PALKI SHARMA: And I believe that there's been a lot of development on trade talks, whether they are expanding the FTA and the other conversations that the two sides have had.
FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, Don Farrell is our Minister that's been engaging with your – with his counterparts, but I do want to make this point: those economic ties matter a lot. But we shouldn't see our economic ties as only about those trade agreements. We have economic engagement, economic partnership across the board and we should continue to grow them.
PALKI SHARMA: Right. So there's all this talk of strategic closeness and of future-focused relationship, and so on and so forth. Why are the visa pathways for Indians tightening?
FOREIGN MINISTER: We do see India as central to the sort of region we want, which is peaceful, stable and prosperous, and you know, that's why we place such a great priority on this relationship, and we really do. And we also value greatly the Indians who come to Australia to study, which is why we want to improve the quality of education that they are receiving. So, some of the changes you are describing have actually been the Australian Government saying, look, for all of these countries who send young people to Australia, we want to make sure their educational outcome is of a high quality.
PALKI SHARMA: But the impression is that Indians have been seeing longer processing times and more scrutiny compared to other nationalities.
FOREIGN MINISTER: Now, look, I don't think that's right. But I do accept that we have moved particularly in the education sector to try and improve, particularly our vocational training, which a lot of Indian students did come to Australia for. We want a high-quality education for Indians who come to our country.
PALKI SHARMA: There's also a rise in hate crime complaints. What is your message to Indian parents who now feel that Australia offers them neither clarity nor security?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I would say that we welcome your sons and your daughters, that we're a country that stands against racism, and you would have seen what the government has said and how we have responded to, you know, those incidents. They are unacceptable, racism is unacceptable, it's unacceptable for us, so obviously unacceptable because we want visitors to our country to feel safe and enjoy their time in Australia, but also because of who we are. You see, one in two of us are migrants or children of migrants, and the India diaspora is such an important part of the Australian community. So there is no place for racism and discrimination in our country, and we will always work to stand against it.
PALKI SHARMA: Is Australia prepared to scale up intelligence sharing with India to the same level that you do with, say, the UK or the US?
FOREIGN MINISTER: We want a deeper strategic partnership with India, and we'll continue to invest in that.
PALKI SHARMA: Right. But that has many dimensions?
FOREIGN MINISTER: It does.
PALKI SHARMA: And there are concerns that both sides need to address, including Khalistani extremism. Our Independence Day celebrations in Australia were disrupted by some groups. How are you addressing India's concern on that matter?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, we understand the sensitivity of these issues, and you know, we've made clear that people in Australia have a right to peaceful protests, but we expect people to be respectful.
PALKI SHARMA: Including extremist elements, separatist groups?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, our law enforcement authorities are authorised to take any appropriate action under the law. We understand the sensitivity of this issue; it's been raised with us. We've been clear that there is a line between peaceful protest and extremism, and we will always ensure that we seek to observe that line in relation to Australians.
PALKI SHARMA: And are your Indian counterparts satisfied with that, that response?
FOREIGN MINISTER: It's up to them; I can't speak for them. I think they –
PALKI SHARMA: You’ve had conversations.
FOREIGN MINISTER: I think they understand we understand the sensitivity of this, and we don't want our relationship to ‑ we come to this relationship, we are both who we are. There's a great deal of strategic convergence, there are also areas where we have a difference of views, or we have a different set of, we have issues we have to manage or issues we have to communicate about, and I think what you see is that we do have, I've had, this will be my 26th meeting with Dr Jaishankar, I count him as a personal friend as well as a professional colleague, and we are able to talk about these issues.
PALKI SHARMA: Is Canberra supporting your stand on cross‑border terrorism including calling out Pakistan and its proxies?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, we stand against terrorism in all its forms, and we understand the concern India has. I expressed our sympathy and solidarity in the wake of the Pahalgam attack.
PALKI SHARMA: Including calling out the groups and the country where these groups have provided a safe haven?
FOREIGN MINISTER: We don't – we would stand against terrorism in all its forms.
PALKI SHARMA: Where is the Quad? Has it lost momentum?
FOREIGN MINISTER: The Quad has had two foreign level, Foreign Minister-level meetings this year, which does demonstrate the importance that the partners, the Quad partners place upon that briefing. What I would say is we obviously would like a leaders' meeting; we hope that one can be arranged next year when leaders are available.
PALKI SHARMA: And how would you describe your relationship with China? Would you say it's the biggest security challenge for Australia at this point?
FOREIGN MINISTER: China is a very consequential relationship for all of us, and India understands that, and China is consequential in the world and in the region. The relationship we want with China is one where we can cooperate where we can, we can engage economically, but we continue to protect and assert our national interests. So I describe it to Australians as cooperate where we can, disagree where we must, and engage in the national interest, and that's the approach we take.
PALKI SHARMA: But do you see it as a strategic threat?
FOREIGN MINISTER: We see China – what I say is China will continue to assert its interests, and it's doing what great powers do, which is to assert its interests. The challenge for Australia is, and I suspect for some other countries, is that some of those interests don't align with our own, and so the question for diplomats is how do you manage that, how do you deal with it? And we deal with that, in part, through our other relationships, so how we envisage the Indo-Pacific is a region in balance, strategic balance, where various countries make a contribution to security that enables that balance, and India is central to that.
PALKI SHARMA: Yes, and it's also important to address the question of how far these countries have responded if that balance is threatened. So if China were to make moves on Taiwan, would Australia intervene militarily?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I don't think any Foreign Minister is going to respond to hypotheticals. What I would say is Australia's position, and I think it is India's position, is that we don't want to see any unilateral change to the status quo.
PALKI SHARMA: A new poll shows that Australians are now more concerned about US interference than China. Do you share that concern?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I don't know which poll you're referring to, but you know, we believe in the resilience of our democracy and our democratic institutions. The US remains our principal strategic partner and ally. You know, we will continue to engage with them, and we will continue to engage with other partners.
PALKI SHARMA: So you think that those concerns are unfounded?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, I don't know what the poll is. Our democracy matters to us, and we'll always make sure it's resilient.
PALKI SHARMA: Has it been frustrating dealing with this US administration, and one has followed the sequence of events, you know, the delay in setting a meeting with Prime Minister Albanese, it did happen, but there was talk in the Australian Parliament that this is a snub. Or the talk about reviewing AUKUS, which caused quite a scare, or the tariffs or the kind of comments that the US President had for your ambassador to Washington. Has it been difficult dealing with this Trump administration?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, we have differences of views, and you mentioned tariffs, and that's one of them, and I believe, you know, that's probably where the Indian Government has a difference of views too. You know, we're a country, we're a smaller economy, a middle-sized economy which has done very well from open trade. So we have a long-standing position that we believe in predictable open trade and access to markets, just as we enable access to markets in Australia. We would want more access to the Indian markets. We have a view about that, we have said publicly we don't agree with tariffs, that we think tariffs are a dis‑benefit, that they are not good for consumers, so we will continue to advocate our position.
PALKI SHARMA: So you agree that US tariffs in India are unfair?
FOREIGN MINISTER: We don't believe that there should be any tariffs as a general principle, and I think that's our position.
PALKI SHARMA: Yeah, but the reason given, the reciprocal tariffs, and then the punitive tariffs for buying Russian oil, do you think that's –
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, the Russian oil issue, yes, this is where Australia and India do have a different view, and, you know, you have a longstanding relationship with Russia. We respect that, but we have a different view. We don't agree with the conflict in Ukraine, we think it is illegal and immoral, and we have taken steps with many other countries to sanction Russia, including in relation to Russian oil, and we're pleased that we've seen moves in the private sector today to take account of, overnight, to take account of some of our concerns.
PALKI SHARMA: All right. But a lot has been said, of course, about how India started buying Russian oil in order to keep the global prices in check at a time when the West was largely in alignment with India's position ‑‑
FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes.
PALKI SHARMA: So this is a U‑turn?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I don't – no, I think that we all have to respond, make our decisions about how we respond to particular conflicts that are faced around the world, and you know, we've taken that view, and we understand, and so do many other countries, I accept that it's not the same position that India has, and India has a historical longstanding relationship with Russia.
PALKI SHARMA: The Russian President is expected to visit in a few days from now. Is that something that's going to come up in your conversations with your Indian counterparts? Is that a message that you bring to India?
FOREIGN MINISTER: India has its relationship with Russia, and we have our view on Russia. You know, these don't prevent us from working together in the so many wide and extensive areas where there is such great strategic convergence, and I think that matters. So I don't think we should be focusing – I don't focus in my discussions with Dr Jaishankar on Russia. We focus on the Indo-Pacific, because that is where our future is, and that is where your future is, and that is where our stability and prosperity ultimately comes from, so that is the absolute priority in our discussions which is why the Quad matters.
PALKI SHARMA: Yes. We have to see where the Quad goes, I mean, there's been a lot of talk, but in tangible terms , what are the outcomes? A new study places Australia among the top 10 best destinations for Chinese investment. So, when you say that we have to protect our interests, how do you do that when dependence is so deep?
FOREIGN MINISTER: There's a number of aspects to that question. The first is economic diversification is absolutely part of our resilience, and we made clear to the Australian business community that we want to continue to see more diversification, India's a very important part of that, so is Southeast Asia, and we've done a lot of work to try and increase our investment and trade ties in Southeast Asia since we came to government, that’s going to be a very, you know, fast growing economy between now and 2030 and 2040. So diversification matters. You know, investment, we welcome investment that's consistent with our national interests. We obviously have made decisions about areas where, you know, we welcome that foreign investment, and areas where we do want to have a look at whether it's in our national interests, and I think we have a transparent framework which enables investors to see that. Foreign investment has been important for our country.
PALKI SHARMA: Are you worried that the South China Sea will be the next big global flash point?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I think we all worry about the potential for escalation in our region, and I've made the point that escalation can be because people actually escalate, escalation can also be because people make inaccurate judgments about the meaning of the strategic intent behind the other's behaviour. So one of the things we have really put a lot of effort into is what ASEAN calls conflict prevention, and that is how do you engage in de-escalation and military-to-military communication to try and remove basically a mistake. Obviously we have – there are differences, different territorial claims, and so forth. You know, we think we need conflict prevention, and Australia has a long-standing view about international law. So, UNCLOS, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea is a norm that enables stability.
PALKI SHARMA: Just one last question. Why did Australia concede to Türkiye hosting COP31? Lots of comments from Pacific Nations to say they're disappointed.
FOREIGN MINISTER: Look, we bid for this because we wanted to elevate Pacific voices and the experience of the Pacific, and if you have had the opportunity to travel in the Pacific, for Pacific Island people, climate change is not abstract, it is lived and real and here. And they speak with such power and authenticity, and that voice, we wanted to give a greater platform to that experience in the international negotiations. Obviously we're still resolving this. If Türkiye continues to not budge, and there's no evidence it will, this will default to Bonn, and for Australia, we don't want it to go to Bonn without any Pacific issues on the agenda and without Pacific involvement, so we are looking at, in discussion with Pacific Island leaders, how do we forge an agreement which enables those Pacific issues to be on the agenda.
PALKI SHARMA: Minister Wong, thank you very much for your time. It was a short visit, but lovely talking.
FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you.