David Speers, Host: Penny Wong, welcome to the programme.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be with you, David.
Speers. So, you were Australia's first climate change Minister, which makes you, I say respectfully, a veteran of the climate wars in Australia. Do you fear the coalition's move against Net Zero could shift public opinion against this target?
Foreign Minister: David, what has become of the Liberal Party? I mean this used to be a serious mainstream political party in this country and now it is overrun by the fringes. They are trying to outflank Pauline Hanson. And what I'd say to Sussan Ley and to Andrew Hastie and to Angus Taylor is you can't be more Pauline than Pauline. But ultimately, what their approach will lead to, their confused, divided approach will lead to is higher prices for Australians. That's what their approach will mean.
Speers: But do you think Australians are seeing prices at the moment going up and up, their household bills have not yet come down and wondering whether this approach of the government's is working for them?
Foreign Minister: We understand people's frustration with energy prices. It's why we've provided relief, which was opposed by the Coalition, to Australians over a number of budgets. It's why we are so focused on bringing more supply into the system. And this is what, this is the key issue, the lack of certainty under the Coalition in government and now again under Sussan Ley led to a situation when they were in government of 24 out of 28 coal fired power stations announcing they would close. That is what happens when you don't have certainty. The market doesn't invest. We saw energy go out of the market which increases prices. What we are doing is focusing on renewables firmed by batteries, by gas, by hydro, and we are bringing more supply into the system. Last year we saw 5 gigawatts come into the system. That's the approach you have to take to structurally improve the position on prices for Australians.
Speers: Just on this argument over the Paris Agreement, what is your understanding? Is it possible to backslide to weaken the targets that have been submitted?
Foreign Minister: I think Andrew Bragg is right. You know, you can't backslide on targets that you've agreed to. But again, what I'd say is this, their approach — Sussan Ley, Andrew Hastie, Angus Taylor's approach — will mean higher prices for Australians, it will mean a higher cost for Australians and it will mean we pay a cost as a country in the region in which we live.
Speers: Just on that point: higher cost in the region in which we live. Has there been any reaction that you've picked up from Pacific neighbours about the Coalition's new position?
Foreign Minister: The Pacific's view of the Coalition's approach to climate policy is well documented and it has become emblematic of the Coalition's disrespect for the Pacific. I mean, that was the case under Tony Abbott, that was the case under Scott Morrison, and regrettably, it is the case under Sussan Ley.
Speers. So, what are you saying? That the view in the Pacific in the wake of what the Coalition's done this past week is quite negative?
Foreign Minister: I am saying that the Pacific regard climate change as their number one issue. So, when parties ostensibly of government in our country do this, or make jokes about water lapping at the door, or demonstrate to them that they simply are not prepared to act, what the Pacific take from that is disrespect. Now, we know our prosperity and our security is tied to our region. This just demonstrates again that the Coalition not only would impose higher costs on Australians, but would impose a cost on Australia in our region.
Speers: Just on those specific relationships. What's happened to the security pact with Vanuatu? The Prime Minister's indicating it's, you know, the next priority. It was supposed to be signed a couple of months ago. When do you expect it to be finalised?
Foreign Minister: The Nakamal agreement, I think it's important to understand what it is. Nakamal is the place where chiefs come together, leaders come together to talk, to resolve issues, to work out the way forward. That's the spirit of the engagement. So, you know, we will take all the time that is required for that agreement to be finalised. We will work through that with Vanuatu because we want to make sure that whatever agreement is finalised and we enter into, that has the support of both countries leaders, the parliaments of both countries.
Speers: Has it been made more difficult by Vanuatu's decision? It's recently announced it's no longer going to allow foreign security advisers to work in its government buildings and that includes the police headquarters. Does that make collaboration on security more difficult?
Foreign Minister: We've been in Vanuatu working with them as a country for decades, and we will do that and have done that in the way that most suits and benefits Vanuatu. That's what a partner does. So, we will continue to work with Vanuatu, to build capability, to provide development assistance, to help grow their economy, to provide labour movement opportunities in partnership with them.
Speers: But physically not any longer in their government buildings or police headquarters?
Foreign Minister: Well, we'll work through this with Vanuatu. Obviously, they will continue to seek a partnership and us working with them, we'll do that in a way that works for them.
Speers: Okay. You're also a bit of a veteran of COP summits too Penny Wong. Let me ask you about where things are at in terms of Australia's bid to host the climate summit next year. If that's not sorted by the end of the this coming week, at the current COP summit, what happens? Does Australia drop its bid?
Foreign Minister: First, just to go back to why we made, why we we put in this bid for COP. The primary reason we did was to bring the world's attention to what is happening for the Pacific on climate change — the lived reality, the effect on countries like Tuvalu, the effect on countries like Vanuatu. This is the primary reason why we sought the COP — to bring the world's attention to what is happening for our Pacific Island family. Obviously, what the Pacific want for the conference and what Turkey want are very different. So, we're going to keep advocating for the Pacific COP. What I would say is, this does need to be resolved. Obviously, discussions are ongoing now in Belem, in Brazil. Chris is on his way or he may be there now. And we hope that negotiations will see an outcome.
Speers: There's meant to be a final position on this by the end of this week, by the end of this COP meeting. But again, what happens if it's not finalised? Does it automatically go to Bonn in Germany or will Australia keep pushing? Will the Prime Minister, for example, take it up with the Turkish president at the G20 summit?
Foreign Minister: Well, Prime Minister is looking forward to seeing President Erdogan at the summit. I would anticipate there will be a resolution by the end of the week. And you're right, you know, there is always the default under the rules to Bonn, which I think all the delegates of the conference understand.
Speers: Obviously, South Australia wants to host COP, your hometown. But is it true the cost is more than $2 billion?
Foreign Minister: I'm not going to comment on, you know, the cost of a conference that we haven't got, we haven't won the bid for yet.
Speers: You don't know the cost? I mean, we're bidding for it...
Foreign Minister: Well, I said no. I said, I said, said we're not. You know, I think, it would also depend on the scope of it. So, I'm not going to comment on that.
Speers: But would that be the sort of price tag Australians should expect?
Foreign Minister: We're doing this again where we, you know, David asks the same question, Penny gives the same answer.
Speers: Well, I am. It's a fair question, though, for Australian taxpayers, what would it cost?
Foreign Minister: Yes, and well, what I'd say to you is I'm not going to provide comment on a conference we haven't yet won and obviously those costs would be finalised, including with the state government and the scope of the bid.
Speers: Alright, let's turn to the security treaty with Indonesia signed during the week. How does this benefit Australia's security?
Foreign Minister: Indonesia is central to Australian security. We know that geographically, we know that historically, and this is a historic agreement that we will enter into a treaty on common security. It means we both recognise that our security is shared and we make a commitment to one another to consult on broader issues of security, on any potential threats. We make a commitment to cooperate, and we make a commitment that we will take action if we both think is necessary. So, this is, again, part of what the government has been seeking to do in times which are turbulent and contested, is to ensure we anchor our security in our region and we strengthen our relationships with regional partners, whether it's Papua New Guinea, where we have a new alliance, Indonesia, or the Pacific, where we are so engaged.
Speers: If we're anchoring our security in the region, why then are we expanding, I guess, our security reliance and cooperation with the United States through AUKUS, through greater American access to our bases in Australia and so on. How is that anchoring our security in our region?
Foreign Minister: There are three aspects to Australia's foreign policy: the region, relationships, and the rules. I would also add resilience, but we can discuss that another time. So, the region is what we've been talking about. It's why this relationship with Indonesia, this agreement for this Treaty on Common Security is so important. Then there are relationships and the United States remains our principal strategic partner and they are indispensable in our region. However, we know we have to do more. We need relationships with India, we need relationships with Japan, we need relationship with Korea. The way we try and maintain peace and security in our region, the way we contribute to that is through this strategic balance with all of these relationships in our region and beyond contributing.
Speers: On the treaty with Indonesia, you mentioned consulting on security threats with each other. I appreciate you probably don't want to get into hypotheticals, but Australians might like to know what's being committed here. If there is a clash, a confrontation, between Indonesia and China in the South China Sea is that something Australia would be consulted on?
Foreign Minister: I don't think the Foreign Minister of the country at any time should be commenting on hypotheticals like that. But what I would say is it is a recognition of a much closer relationship when it comes to instability in our region, that we want to work together for stability and peace.
Speers: What about things like greater Indonesian cooperation with Russia in a military sense? Is that something that would be consulted on?
Foreign Minister: I'd make a couple of comments about the relationship between Russia and Indonesia. Russia has had a relationship with Indonesia since the time of Menzies. So, I think it's important that we recognise this is not a new set of relationships. We recognise that. We also recognise that the way we deal with our desire for stability is to invest in our relationship with Indonesia. And that is what we are doing. And this is a historic agreement, a treaty which reflects the agreement that Prime Minister Keating was able to establish with Indonesia, which was dissolved in 1999. We now have a version of that which really brings us back to the high watermark of our relations.
Speers: I guess I'm just trying to get a sense of how it works. So, if Indonesia is expanding its cooperation with Russia or if we're expanding Australia's cooperation with the United States and the presence of US forces here, is that something that has to be consulted on with Indonesia?
Foreign Minister: I'm not going to get into details of what will and won't be the subject of discussion, but you will understand it is a different type of relationship that we have both agreed to engage in, which does involve much more consultation and much more cooperation.
Speers: You mentioned cooperation with India. Amidst that, Penny Wong, you're off to India as I understand it this week. There is a bit of a question mark right now over the future of the Quad grouping — India, Japan, Australia and the United States — so, it's meant to be a leaders meeting in India this year. It's not happening. Where are things at with the Quad? Is this going to last?
Foreign Minister: First, I'm very pleased to be heading to India this week to see my very good friend, External Affairs Minister Jaishankar. India's a really important partner, really important power in the world and in our region. It's a great power in the world. Look, in terms of the Quad, the Quad is very important to Australia and the extent of its importance is demonstrated by the fact I've been to two Foreign Minister level meetings of the Quad this year in the United States. And that really is a demonstration that the Quad partners understand the importance of that meeting, of that set of countries, to stability in our region. Now, we obviously look forward to there being a Quad meeting of leaders when leaders are able to do that.
Speers: Two quick ones, finally. China is demanding a retraction after ASIO boss Mike Burgess claimed that two cyber hacking groups trying to penetrate critical infrastructure here in Australia were, in his words, working for Chinese Government intelligence and their military. Was Mike Burgess right?
Foreign Minister: We always take the advice of our security agencies, intelligence agencies, very seriously and very carefully, and we back them. And what I would say is, you know, the risks of cyber intrusion, the risks of foreign interference are not new risks. We know about these. We understand these. That's why we are seeking to make sure we are more resilient. We have increasing cyber protection, and we act with other countries to attribute cyber intrusions when is appropriate, when that's appropriate.
Speers: You agree that this should be attributed to China?
Foreign Minister: We have acted with other countries to attribute a number of PRC-linked entities to cyber intrusions. We did that earlier this year, so we will do that as necessary.
Speers: Final one, the Trump administration is lifting tariffs on a bunch of products, including beef, bananas, coffee, certainly for Australian beef farmers, that sees that tariff come off. There has been a backlash over grocery prices in the US leading up to this decision. Do you, is this a case of I told you so when it comes to these Trump tariffs and do you expect more now to be removed?
Foreign Minister: We welcome the lifting of these tariffs. You know, that's a good thing for Australian beef producers. We maintain a clear, consistent position. We do not support tariffs. We believe in being able to access each other's markets. We think that's in the best interests of consumers as well as of producers. What I would say though is this does demonstrate again, you know, that where the opposition have been on this, and I would again make this point, it's possible to be a decent opposition and still back the country and it'd be good if they actually did that.
Speers: Ok, but when it comes to Donald Trump, is this the first crack on the tariffs? Do you expect the aluminium and steel ones to come off next?
Foreign Minister: Look, we will keep advocating our position. We think there is very clear economic logic to that, and we've made that position clear. The Prime Minister made it clear in his discussion with President Trump.
Speers: Foreign Minister Penny Wong. Thanks for joining us this morning.
Foreign Minister: Always good to speak with you, David.