David Speers, host: Penny Wong, the Foreign Minister, joins us now. Minister, welcome to the program.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good morning, good to be with you.
Speers: So just give us the latest information if you can on Australians, both civilians but also Australian Government and military personnel in the region, are they safe or are they being evacuated?
Foreign Minister: Look, obviously, this is a very perilous situation. It's a very risky situation. I'm just getting an echo here, so I’d really appreciate if we can deal with that. What I was just going to say, is my thoughts are with Australians and their families who are in Israel and Iran, and for people who have relatives in those countries. Our advice has been to shelter in place, to take hard shelter, to make sure you keep in touch with Smartraveller – be aware of what the warnings and messages are on Smartraveller – and to follow the advice of local authorities. Currently, David, the airspace is closed, so obviously that informs the advice that we are giving. What I would say, is we've stood up the crisis centre. We have a consular emergency line, which is 24 hours, and I have been in contact not only with the Ambassador, but we've stood up a team across government to deal with this response.
Speers: Okay, look, there's been a mixed reaction from different countries to Israel's decision to make this pre-emptive strike on Iran on Friday. We've heard, as I say, from some European leaders, a call for de-escalation, but an acknowledgement that Israel has a right to defend itself. China's been more critical of what Israel has done here. What's the Australian Government's view, was this justified and was it legal?
Foreign Minister: Well, let's step through what we know. We know, the world knows, that Iran's nuclear and ballistic missile program is a threat to international peace and security, and we know that Iran has been found by the UN watchdog to be in breach of its non-proliferation obligations. This is why we all have sanctions against Iran, because we understand the risk to international security. What I would say, is the key issue is not is there a threat? We all know that. It's whether or not, in response to it, we increase the risk of regional escalation, and that would have dire consequences to the people of the region. So that is why Australia has said, we urge de-escalation, we urge restraint, we urge dialogue and diplomacy. And that call has been reflected by likemindeds and partners. You saw the United Kingdom and others have said the same. And I note also, President Trump has said he's open to a deal. We are concerned, as is the whole world, about the risk of this escalating and bringing more consequences for the people of the region.
Speers: But just to pick up on what you've said there, Minister, this acknowledging that there was a threat posed by Iran, but there's a risk of escalation in what Israel has decided to do here. Are you critical of this decision from Israel?
Foreign Minister: We would say what we have to do now is to deescalate and exercise restraint, and we have to return to dialogue. I'd note that's what Prime Minister Starmer has said. It's also consistent with what President Trump has said. Anyone looking at this understands the consequences of this escalating, of regional escalation - so that is more countries potentially being affected – that is a risk to the whole, all the peoples of the region.
Speers: But does Australia think what Israel has done was justified and legal?
Foreign Minister: Well, Israel has a right to self-defence, it does have a right to self-defence. But the question here is not a legal proposition. The question here is what do we do now? We know Iran is a threat. We know that its nuclear program poses a threat to international peace, and obviously to Israel. What do we do about it, and how do we respond in a way that lessens the risk of more civilians particularly in the region being brought into this conflict.
Speers: We just heard the comments from Prime Minister Netanyahu. We've seen Iran continuing its response as well. There is no sign yet of de-escalation. How concerned are you about where this might go?
Foreign Minister: Obviously it is a perilous time in the Middle East. It is a risky time. And obviously we've engaged closely with the Israeli government through our Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and through the Ambassador here, at officials level. I also spoke, after liaising with partners, to the Iranian Foreign Minister, and this is precisely the same message I put to him - that we urge restraint, because whatever people's views about what has occurred to date, what happens tomorrow matters to all peoples in the region.
Speers: So you spoke to the Iranian Foreign Minister in the last 24 hours?
Foreign Minister: 48 hours. With the time zones, yes. Friday night my time, yes.
Speers: And so you directly urged the Iranian Foreign Minister to stop retaliation?
Foreign Minister: I directly urged, as I said, after liaising with partners, I directly put to the Iranian Foreign Minister - we are saying to you, exercise restraint, return to diplomacy and dialogue, because continuing to escalate this has consequences for all peoples of the region. And I think that is a position that so many countries in the world are putting to, not only the Iranians, but also to the Israelis.
Speers: Look, can I also turn to the Israel-Gaza conflict. There was meant to be a special UN conference happening this week on a two-state solution, that's now been postponed given what's unfolding between Israel and Iran, but I'd still like your view on this, or your latest view on this. We've seen the US Ambassador to Israel say that he doesn't think a two-state solution is still the goal of the United States. Does that change your thinking at all on this?
Foreign Minister: You know, I often think of what Golda Meir, the former Prime Minister of Israel, said to Bob Hawke. She said there can be no peace for Israel until there is an honourable settlement of the aspirations of the Palestinian peoples. No peace for Israel until there's an honourable settlement for the aspirations of the Palestinian people. And that is where the international community who are working to try and build a pathway to two states, that is where that thinking is from – that we understand this is not about symbolism, it's not about taking sides. It's actually about trying to build a pathway to peace, because ultimately, stability and peace for Israel, security for Israel, as well as for the Palestinian people will not come until there is movement and the establishment of two states. Now, getting there is hard, David, I don't pretend. We're so far from that right now, but that is why the international community is trying to work together to build this pathway. I understand why President Macron cancelled the conference and there is a lot more work to be done in the time ahead, but the point that so many of the countries of the world are making, is that we know we want long term peace and security for Israelis and for Palestinians, and this is the only path that enables that.
Speers: Australia, during the week, also sanctioned two far right members of the Netanyahu ministry. This is against the wishes of the United States as well. Is there a risk that in doing this Australia is less influential with both Israel and the United States on things like a two-state solution?
Foreign Minister: We didn't take this decision lightly and we didn't take this decision alone. We took this decision with other countries – with the United Kingdom, with Canada, with New Zealand and Norway. We thought deeply about it why we felt we needed to do it. We moved with others, because when we act with others we have more impact. And we are making a clear statement. A clear statement about extremist settler violence and the extremist settler enterprise, and the way in which that's being implemented, is not consistent with human rights, it's not consistent with two states, and we feel that we need to act.
In relation to Gaza more broadly, as you know, we have taken a different position to that of the United States and Israel.
We have called for a ceasefire, the release of hostages, we've called for aid to be delivered unimpeded. These are all principled positions that Australia takes, and we do it with other countries.
Speers: Let me ask you about the Prime Minister's meeting with President Trump, it'll take place on Tuesday in Canada, at the sidelines of the G7. What should we, and what do you, expect to come from that meeting?
Foreign Minister: The Prime Minister has, as you say, indicated overnight that we have a meeting scheduled. We anticipate the opportunity to engage with President Trump. Obviously, there's a lot going on in the world at the moment, but we're pleased that this has been scheduled. Obviously, the Prime Minister has said already that AUKUS and tariffs are things that are on his mind and are on the country's mind, so I anticipate that he will find the opportunity in this meeting to raise these issues.
Speers: We know the Pentagon has launched a review into AUKUS. The Prime Minister will raise this with the President, obviously. We know the US, the Trump Administration, wants Australia to significantly step up defence spending. Is Australia willing to offer the US anything more to keep AUKUS alive?
Foreign Minister: Well, there's two things here. Firstly, in relation to AUKUS, it is a partnership that benefits all three countries. It certainly does benefit Australia in terms of submarine capability, our industrial base and jobs, but it also benefits the United States. It benefits the United States through our investment, that is $2 billion provided to the United States for their industrial base to expand their capacity. It also provides Australian capacity so that the US has to do less maintenance in the near term, so they can build more submarines, and we can continue to maintain submarines, giving them more time in the water. So my point is, there are near term and medium term benefits for the United States as well and I'm sure the Prime Minister will be putting that, if he has the opportunity, to President Trump. What I'd also say in terms of defence spending, we have engaged in the largest increase in peacetime of Australia's defence spending in history. We will always do what is required to keep Australians safe, as the Prime Minister has made very clear. We do that by assessing the capability that is required and ensuring that we acquire it. That's what we're doing.
Speers: Okay, but is the deal that's there at the moment, and that spending that you talk to, is that a take it or leave it. Or, again, are you willing to do more? Are you willing to offer the US any more?
Foreign Minister: Well, I'm not setting defence budgets, as the Foreign Minister, on Insiders. The Prime Minister has made our position on this very clear. We assess capability requirements and we make sure that they are funded appropriately.
Speers: How reliant is Australia on this AUKUS deal? What would happen if this fell over?
Foreign Minister: Look, it is a very important partnership for all countries. Certainly, it's important for Australia. We have a submarine capability which needs to be replaced but there are benefits, as I said, to all three countries, including near term benefits for the United States, and I'm sure that the review that people have been discussing will demonstrate that to the Trump Administration and to others.
Speers: Just on defence spending. I mean, the Prime Minister, we know, does not like setting a GDP target. He tells us he'd rather choose the capability we need and fund it. Others, however, are setting these targets. The British, 3% of GDP, the Germans, 5% of GDP, the French, more than 3% of GDP. It is seen by some as an important way of signaling to allies and adversaries your commitment on defence. Why does the Australian Government take a different view?
Foreign Minister: Because we will fund what is required. I think the Prime Minister has made it clear the way in which we will go about funding defence. We will do it by assessing capability and ensuring that we provide for the capability that is required.
Speers: Okay, let me talk to you about China, because we saw the US Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, a couple of weeks ago at that Shangri-La Dialogue made some pretty strong remarks about China's, what he called, imminent threat to Taiwan. This clearly underpins the Americans sense of urgency here as to why it wants allies like Australia to do more. Does China, in your view, pose an imminent threat to Taiwan?
Foreign Minister: Well, first in relation to Taiwan, the long-standing Australian Government position remains – and I will restate it because it is important – we support the status quo, we oppose any unilateral changes to the status quo, and we urge these matters to be dealt with peacefully.
The second point I would make is this – China has, as I have said, been exerting its interests and its power. It has been exerting its influence, exerting its power, in order to progress its interests in our region. That is very clear. I have spoken about that for many years. At times, those interests will be different to Australia's, and we understand that. Which is why we do many things. We engage bilaterally, but we also engage with partners, including the United States, because what Australia wants is a region where no country dominates and no country is dominated. And that requires strategic balance, it requires the engagement of the US, and it requires all countries of the region to play their part.
Speers: I mean, you're saying China's exerting influence, the US does seem to be saying a whole lot more than that. I mean, Pete Hegseth, the Defence Secretary, says China is seeking to become a hegemonic power that seeks to dominate and control too many parts of Asia. And this is important. Does Australia have a fundamentally different view to the United States about the nature of the threat posed by China?
Foreign Minister: I think it is clear that China is seeking to become much stronger in our region. I think I've said that many times, David. I've spoken about China as a great power using its influence, using its strength, including its increasing military capability, to press its interests and to expand its influence. We know that is happening, which is why we have to respond in the way that we have, because what we want is not escalation, we want a strategic balance in the region, which enables all countries to maintain their sovereignty and not have one country dominant.
Speers: Foreign Minister Penny Wong, we'll let you get a glass of water and we appreciate you sticking with some technical issues there as well.
Foreign Minister: No worries.
Speers: Thanks so much for joining us this morning.
Foreign Minister: Good to be with you.