Patricia Karvelas, host: Now, just a short time ago, I spoke with the Foreign Minister, Penny Wong. She is, of course, key to all of this and the negotiations with different countries about where we go. I talked to her about what the government's next moves will be on Palestinian statehood and whether it will basically move in this direction. Foreign Minister, welcome to the program.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be with you, Patricia.
Karvelas: Prime Minister Mark Carney says Canada intends to recognise a Palestinian state at the United Nations in September. The UK will do the same, as will France. They're all, of course, big allies of ours. What's your reaction to Canada's announcement today?
Foreign Minister: Look, we welcome the momentum towards a pathway to peace and that is what two states is about. And we've seen this momentum build internationally. Now, you might recall over a year ago, I gave a speech which said that Australia no longer saw recognition at the end of a process, but it could be part of a peace process. And what we are seeing is countries of the world making decisions about how they can best contribute to that peace process. And given what is happening in Gaza, in the Middle East, we have to find ways, as an international community, of breaking the cycle of violence.
Karvelas: If it is a matter of when, not if, as I think it was the Treasurer who used that language, before we recognised Palestine. What are the specific things your government now needs to become very strongly apparent before you're willing to make this decision, just like our allies have?
Foreign Minister: Well, look, the first point I'd make is actually, I have been saying it's a matter of when, not if, for some time. I think in the middle of last year, that was language I've used, and the reason I did that is because, you know, we as a government recognise that is the best path to peace and security for both Israelis and Palestinians. Two states is the only way for long-term security or to long-term security for the peoples of the region. Now, the judgement that our government has been considering over this period of time, including in our engagement with France and the United Kingdom and Canada and others, is what is the best collective contribution we can make to the progress towards two-states and peace and security in the region.
Karvelas: And one of your conditions was around the Palestinian Authority reforming. That's now in train. Now, Canada has signed onto this idea of Palestinian statehood and making a declaration with this condition too. So, given they've explicitly said this, we have too, what's the extra barrier for us on that?
Foreign Minister: I want to first say how much we welcome the moves by the Palestinian Authority. As you, as you correctly said, quite historic commitments, including not only condemnation of Hamas but very clear commitment to governance and to demilitarisation of a Palestinian state. That's a very important commitment because, of course, we want to make sure that the security architecture of the region is one that reflects the need for the security of Israel as well as the existence of and stability of a Palestinian state. We do welcome that, just as we welcome other comments by the countries of the Arab League condemning Hamas. As you know, Hamas must not have a role in the future governance of Gaza, and we welcome the statements of the Arab League and others to that end.
Karvelas: So, what are we waiting for, then? If we've got the Arab League calling on Hamas to disarm, which is very significant, we've got – it's historic, it's unprecedented, it's a big deal – at the same time, we have the Palestinian Authority making these commitments. We've got our partners in Canada and the UK, France, putting different conditions on and saying that this will be – what else do we want as a nation?
Foreign Minister: We're an orderly government. We're a government that looks at these issues very carefully and very deeply. This is a discussion that I have been engaging in with the Australian community for some time. These are some of the reasons why I gave that speech. I think it was in April of last year to talk about the role recognition could play in bringing about peace. It is something we are looking at, we are considering, but more importantly, as the Prime Minister said, we are engaging with other friends and partners in the international community. Ultimately, this has to be something the great weight of the international community has to come together around.
Karvelas: Okay, so has that weight happened, or are we waiting for more dominoes to fall, so to speak, if I can call it that way? Like, I'm just wondering what's holding us off, because all of your language is very supportive of these countries saying yes to Palestinian statehood. Yet, we're not quite saying yes. Why?
Foreign Minister: Look, there's a process in place, isn't there? There's a process for consideration here in Australia. We know that this is something leaders will be considering in September at the United Nations, I would make the point that some of the announcements you've spoken about are actually about a declaration that they will recognise at that conference. So, just to give you a sense of what the international community is engaged in, and obviously the focus is what does happen in New York in September. And I hope what happens at New York in September is we see the hostages released, we see the commitments from the Palestinian Authority and others in the region about the security of Israel, the demilitarisation of a Palestinian state and a move towards, and a move on recognition. Because what we want out of it is something, a status, which breaks the cycle of violence. That's what we want.
Karvelas: Okay, so Australia making a similar declaration in September is still a live option right now?
Foreign Minister: You're asking me to make announcements. I'm not going to do that. We've always said when, not if. We've always said, we'll work through this, we'll consider this carefully, we'll work with international partners. That's what we're doing.
Karvelas: I'm not asking you to make the announcement, but –
Foreign Minister: You probably are, but that's okay, that’s your job.
Karvelas: I understand you won't, because I live in reality, so, mostly. So, help me out here, it's still a live discussion whether the government makes that declaration. That's the question.
Foreign Minister: Of course, these. These are discussions which are ongoing. Of course they are. You know, we have been very closely engaged with a number of the countries you've referenced. There's been a lot of discussion internationally, as the Prime Minister has made clear. This is something we are thinking very carefully about, just as we think very carefully about what is it that we can do to contribute to bringing about a ceasefire in Gaza? Now, we know we're not the central player, but what we can do is what we've done, which is call for ceasefire, join with others. We've done so for a very long time. And of course, a couple of weeks – last week or the week before, you saw me with 27 other Foreign Ministers making very strong statements about letting aid in. Now, these are all things that we can do. I would just make one point about the Opposition, if I may. The whole world is calling for a ceasefire, including President Trump, yet the Opposition and Senator Cash appear to be unable to even join for that call. That's how out of touch with where the international community is, the Opposition are.
Karvelas: Jewish leader Mark Leibler has today warned that the recognition of Palestinian statehood now would only delay the release of Israeli hostages and would encourage Hamas' intransigence. What's your response to this critique?
Foreign Minister: First, that the hostages must be released. The second point I would make, though, is two states is not what Hamas wants. Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish people and the destruction of the State of Israel. The peaceful coexistence of two states is contrary to Hamas's ideology, which is in part why they are a listed terrorist organisation and why we have continued to condemn them, not just for the barbaric acts of October 7th, but because of what they represent and what they do.
Karvelas: If the hostages are not returned by the September UN meeting, is that going to mean that there is no option of recognising statehood?
Foreign Minister: We want the hostages to be released. The hostages must be released, and that is the consistent call from the international community.
Karvelas: But is that, is that actually a precondition?
Foreign Minister: The hostages must be released. We've made that clear. And the whole of the international community, including the United Kingdom, Canada and France have also.
Karvelas: Absolutely. And it's important. But does it hold up any declaration of statehood?
Foreign Minister: Well, the point is, you know, we will consider all of these matters very carefully and we are, we want the hostages released, that we believe the hostages must be released. That is why we continue to call for their release.
Karvelas: And can these issues be handled separately –
Foreign Minister: The broader point, the broader point I would make though is what the what Canada and the United Kingdom and France and so, and the Palestinian Authority and the Arab League are all seeking to do, is to work out what we can each do to break the cycle of violence that is consuming the Middle East and is destroying so many lives. And we cannot continue to stand by and watch what is happening in Gaza and not take the sorts of actions you are seeing. We cannot continue to accept that this cycle of violence can continue. We have so many civilians dying, we have so many civilian deaths. We have so much suffering, and we also have the hostages still held. Now, we have to see what we can do as an international community to change the pathway that the region is on.
Karvelas: The ABC has called on Israel to again allow international journalists to report independently from Gaza and allow them to move in and out of Gaza. Now Israeli authorities continue to block access, as you know, should that change?
Foreign Minister: Of course it should. I mean, journalists play such an important role in making sure that the world understands what is occurring. Journalists also are entitled to be protected. And we know, sadly, many journalists did die and were killed in the violence that we saw previously and in the conflict that we saw previously. But, you know, we would like to see journalists able to report and journalists being protected.
Karvelas: And there is reports that aid workers are basically saying that Israel's new measures are just still not dealing with a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, that this approach that's being taken isn't enough. Do you agree?
Foreign Minister: Yes, I do. And that's why I joined a coalition of Foreign Ministers a couple of weeks ago to call for humanitarian aid to be delivered and made very strong comments about the model of aid delivery that the Israeli government is implementing. It is not safe and it is not sufficient.
Karvelas: Have you called in the Israeli Ambassador and asked questions in relation to claims by the ambassador and of course, Benjamin Netanyahu, too, that the images coming out of Gaza are essentially not real?
Foreign Minister: First, I engage with the Israeli Ambassador and other ambassadors, as appropriate. The second point I'd make is the point the Prime Minister made, and I think also and President Trump, I don't think you can avert your eyes, nor can you diminish what is happening in Gaza to women and children and to civilians more broadly.
Karvelas: Just finally, the ABC has been told that the Director of the FBI, Kash Patel, has made a secretive visit to Australia. Have you had any contact with Kash Patel?
Foreign Minister: I understand that he, Mr Patel met his counterpart who is at a Ministerial level, it would be Minister Burke.
Karvelas: And the FBI is opening a bureau in New Zealand. Looks like it's a battle, so, countering China, is that something that you think is an important thing to happen? Do you support this, and is it something we're involved in?
Foreign Minister: I'm not commenting on intelligence matters.
Karvelas: Okay, fair enough. Penny Wong, thank you.
Foreign Minister: Thank you.