Sarah Ferguson, host: Foreign Minister, welcome to 7.30.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be with you.
Ferguson: Does the show of force that we saw in that large march at the weekend in difficult conditions. Does it have a direct impact on the government's policy?
Foreign Minister: First, I want to say that was an extraordinary march and I think it demonstrates what we all feel – I know that Australians are feeling distressed, angry, upset, really horrified by what they're seeing in Gaza. I certainly share that distress. So do ministers in the government, and I know from my engagement with the Australian community, the extent to which this is become an issue that is really, really widespread across the Australian community. I think the march demonstrated that.
Ferguson: Let’s talk about the food situation in Gaza. At the moment, there were six more deaths from starvation or malnutrition reported at the weekend. That brings the total to 175, 93 of whom were children. If this wasn't Israel, would the world’s response be tougher?
Foreign Minister: I think that's more a question for, it's probably a question you might, might be thinking about. I just want to get aid in. And you know, we have made an announcement today of an additional $20 million, which takes our total support, humanitarian support for both Gaza and Lebanon to $130 million. We've chosen partners who have some capacity to get aid in, so the World Food Programme, the International Red Cross, the Jordanians who have been running field hospitals. We want to work to get aid in. But I would make this point, and I think I said this when we were in the press conference with the UK I talked about, this isn't just stopping aid, it's not just a breach of international humanitarian law, it's a breach of our common humanity, and it can't be countenanced.
Ferguson: And yet the problem Foreign Minister is that it is being countenanced, and it does continue. Which takes me back to that question which I would like to press you for an answer on which is if this wasn't Israel, would the world be tougher?
Foreign Minister: I don't agree that it's been countenanced. What, why do you say that? I mean, I think it is –
Ferguson: When I say that, it continues.
Foreign Minister: Even the US, even the US has made its position on that very clear, that aid does need to flow. So I don't agree there's and, you know, they are probably the strongest ally of Israel, I think the international community as one has said this can't occur.
Ferguson: I guess the point I'm making, if I don't want to get hung up on on countenance as the word, the fact is, it is still a problem. People are still dying from starvation. So whether or not it's being countenanced, it is a fact.
Foreign Minister: And it's horrific, and it cannot as the Prime Minister said it can't be justified. It can't be defended.
Ferguson: And so where is the will from the international community to force Israel to allow more aid in and to ensure that that aid that gets into Gaza is properly distributed.
Foreign Minister: Well, I can speak for the part we play. As you know, we're not the central player, but what we have done is worked with others in the international community to press for, to call for, aid and humanitarian support to be delivered safely and at scale. I think you've seen quite a lot, a great deal of pressure being applied to the Israelis on that front, both publicly and beyond. And I would also make this point, President Trump himself has talked about the need for a ceasefire, for hostage release and for aid to flow.
Ferguson: Is it clear now that Israel is using starvation as a weapon of war?
Foreign Minister: I think it is impossible to justify the withholding of aid from civilians.
Ferguson: Does that make it a fact then that Israel is using starvation as a weapon of war?
Foreign Minister: I think it is impossible to justify withholding aid from women and children and I think you have seen across the Australian community, people from very different perspectives make the same point.
Ferguson: Now we understand the Prime Minister wants a phone call with Prime Minister Netanyahu. Is he hoping, or is he planning to use the threat of recognition as a point of leverage in the way that the UK Prime Minister has?
Foreign Minister: Well, I'll leave the Prime Minister to talk to you or talk to others as he sees fit –
Ferguson: You must have had, you must be discussing that phone call with him if it is to take place.
Foreign Minister: Well, you would anticipate that the Prime Minister in his international interactions, just as, reflects the position that we articulate as an Australian Government, as do I.
Ferguson: Does Israel want peace in Gaza?
Foreign Minister: Well, you can't see into people's hearts and minds, can you –
Ferguson: What's your interpretation?
Foreign Minister: Well what I would say is the Israel has a has a right to security. And I would argue that the only pathway, long-term, to peace and security is two states. That means a ceasefire, release of hostages and aid to flow and progress towards a two-state solution.
Ferguson: I just want to put to you what the Israeli Foreign Minister said about the movement towards recognition of a Palestinian state. He says they will recognise a Palestinian state on paper, he said we will build an Israeli Jewish state on the ground. Is the international community impotent in the face of Israeli moves to increase settlements in the West Bank?
Foreign Minister: Well, you would have seen in the West Bank in relation to settlements, that the Australian Government along with partners have sanctioned two Israeli ministers for their role in the abuse of human rights of Palestinians –
Ferguson: And yet it goes on, we’ve got the Israeli Government move to 22 new settlements…
Foreign Minister: Let me finish, let me finish. We have sanctioned those, we have sanctioned extremist settlers, and we have sanctioned entities which are associated with that, and particularly a violent enterprise around settlements. And the reason for that is because we want to do what we can to preserve the possibility of a Palestinian state. Again I say I believe, Australia believes, that is the only way to assure peace and security for Israelis and for Palestinians.
Ferguson: The Australian Government is part of a global movement but you are creating momentum towards the UN meeting in September where the possibility of the recognition of Palestine will be first and foremost on the agenda. What is the next step in that momentum for Australia?
Foreign Minister: Well I think you will see us continue to engage with others, both publicly and behind the scenes –
Ferguson: We won't see it if it's behind the scenes. What will be going on behind the scenes?
Foreign Minister: Yeah, I think if the question is a recognition question, I think that's what you're asking me –
Ferguson: No it's not. It's not and in fact, because the Prime Minister has already made it clear that it, you know, it's a question of when, not if. So I want to understand what the next step is for Australia. In being part of that momentum towards September.
Foreign Minister: There is a lot of coordination and discussion with other parties in other countries, and I think we all recognise, this might be I think someone said, our last hope – I hope that's not the case, but we cannot, we cannot stand by with what is happening in Gaza and not add momentum towards two states. We cannot stand by whilst the prospect of a Palestinian state is diminished on the ground by settlements and other statements, we have to find a way to push for and press for two states. As I keep saying, I cannot see long-term stability and peace for Israelis and Palestinians unless the Palestinian issue is resolved, the issue of the Palestinian state, that was the promise that the international community made when we established, as a collective, the State of Israel.
Ferguson: Foreign Minister, thank you very much indeed for talking to us.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you