Sarah Ferguson, Host: Standing on the deck of HMAS Canberra at a Sydney naval base today, the PM and Indonesian President Prabowo Subianto announced a new security treaty that commits each nation to consult the other if threatened. It's similar to an agreement signed between the two countries in the mid-90s under Paul Keating that was abandoned when relations with Jakarta soured. But of course, we are living in a wholly different world. The treaty marks a significant moment, strengthening our position in the Asia Pacific. While the government continues to develop Australia's military relationship with the US. Foreign Minister Penny Wong was a crucial player in the negotiations. I spoke to her earlier. Penny Wong, welcome.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be here.
Ferguson: It's good to have you in the studio. Now, this major announcement today of a security treaty with Indonesia was not expected outside of government circles. Was that to prevent China putting pressure on the Indonesian President not to agree to it?
Foreign Minister: Look, this is an historic day. It's a day where the two leaders have finalised, broadly, the treaty between our two countries, enshrining a requirement to consult, enshrining strategic trust. So, it's a very big day. And really, this does demonstrate, you know, what we said when we came to government - we want to anchor our national security in our region, and we want to strengthen the relations with our region.
Ferguson: Noting that wasn't an answer to the question. But...
Foreign Minister: It was the answer to part of the question?
Ferguson: Let me put this to you. So, this treaty commits the two countries, if either is threatened, to discuss what measures would be taken to deal with those threats. Does that mean potentially deploying Australian military assets, air, naval, to defend Indonesia from China?
Foreign Minister: What it means is that we are giving a commitment to one another, as neighbours, to consult with each other, to work together and to cooperate. That's what it means.
Ferguson: The treaty talks about threats specifically, so does that contemplate using Australian military assets to defend Indonesia against China?
Foreign Minister: It recognises that our security is shared. And in fact, you know, we've described it as the Treaty for Common Security, and that is because we recognise that what happens to Indonesia, what happens to Australia, affects each other. So, this is a very important set of commitments. It does obviously leave both countries able to make our own sovereign decisions. But it is something very important about how much we trust each other, how much we respect each other, and how much we recognise that our security, we have common interests when it comes to our security.
Ferguson: So, what does that word 'threats' mean? Who does that contemplate?
Foreign Minister: Well, I think we all understand that external interests, external events, can be a risk to our countries. And so, what we are saying to each other is - we want to work together and cooperate in the face of those.
Ferguson:So, you were part of the negotiations...
Foreign Minister:Very much...
Ferguson: Did you discuss the specific deployment of Australian material, air assets, naval assets, while having these negotiations?
Foreign Minister: What we spoke about was that the history of our relationship. We know that this is very similar to the agreement that was struck in the 90s, which you'd be aware of, when Prime Minister Keating was...
Ferguson: Of course, in a very different strategic environment, which goes to the nature of my question. That agreement struck then was in a world that is entirely different, according to the government of Anthony Albanese, to the world we live in now with the militarisation of China.
Foreign Minister: But there is one insight from that time which continues. That is, we have to anchor our security in our region. And that is a very important insight. And it really differs our government from what we see at the moment playing out inside the Parliament, where the Coalition is busy fighting itself. We recognise, to keep Australia secure, to keep Australians secure, we have to anchor our security in our region. And we do that through a network or a web of relationships with other countries in our region. And you know that there is no country more important to us than Indonesia. Geographically, we understand the imperative of our relationship with Indonesia. And what you've seen today is the result of that understanding and of the respect and friendship between particularly the Prime Minister and the President.
Ferguson: The Prime Minister called it a watershed moment...
Foreign Minister:It is.
Ferguson:Earlier on, you described it as historic, but I noticed that President Prabowo Subianto didn't say very much in his remarks. Will he describe this deal differently at home in Indonesia, or subsequently to Xi Jinping, the Chinese, or even to the Russians?
Foreign Minister:President Prabowo will make his decisions about which words he uses. I'm making...
Ferguson: But do you expect him to use the same kinds of words that you are using? Historic, watershed, underlining its importance?
Foreign Minister: One of the things that the President said today, both publicly and privately, is he talked about us having a permanent interest in being good neighbours, that we have permanent interests in our common security. Now, I think that is a very important set of propositions from the Indonesian President.
Ferguson: Just briefly, does this also involve the possibility of the Australian Signals Directorate being deployed to help Indonesia in the event of an attack on its critical infrastructure?
Foreign Minister: I'm not going to get into specifics, specific hypotheticals. And you wouldn't expect me to. But what I would say is this. It does mean that we have agreed, whoever is in this job, whoever is in the Prime Minister's job in years to come, whoever is in the President's job, that we will consult with each other and that that obligation to, that promise to consult, that is not something that is given often. And I know that people may think it does not sound as big as we think it is traditionally...
Ferguson: It sounds very big when you talk about threats to either country.
Foreign Minister: Correct.
Ferguson:And so I'm trying to understand what those threats are...
Foreign Minister:...And that obligation to consult is not something we give to many countries. And we do it because when we understand the extent to which we have shared security interests, and we have shared security interests with Indonesia.
Ferguson:How does this treaty relate to the treaty that we've just signed with Papua New Guinea, which is on a slightly higher level, but nonetheless similar. How do these two relate to each other?
Foreign Minister: Well, first, obviously, the Puk Puk Treaty that we've signed with Papua New Guinea is an alliance. So, that is a greater level of legal commitment that we are making. But they really both spring from the same proposition, which is we recognise our security comes from our region and that Australia's security is benefited by us having these very strong formalised relationships in our region with the countries to our north.
Ferguson: Earlier this week, there were reports that you spoke to Nauruan President David Adeang. Did you get an answer to the question, is Australian taxpayers' money being used via the Nauruan government to pay for members of a criminal bikie gang to provide security in Nauru?
Foreign Minister: Well, yes, I did meet with President Adeang. He was in Australia, along with a number of other Pacific representatives for a Pacific Security College conference, particularly for Micronesia. He was one of a number, obviously one of the most senior delegates, but one of a number of delegates visiting Australia...
Ferguson: Sort of neither here nor there to my question.
Foreign Minister: No, no, but I was just going to give you the context to it. So, yes, I did meet with him and I met with quite a number of. I met with, you know, at a dinner event with a number of the delegates. We did discuss these issues. I made our expectations about those matters clear.
Ferguson: Did you get a straight answer from him whether Australian taxpayers' money is being used to fund security provided by criminal bikie gangs?
Foreign Minister: I think President Adeang understands Australia's position.
Ferguson: Does that mean that you made it clear to him?
Foreign Minister: I think he understands what our position is. And our position obviously is one that we expect Australian funds to be used in the appropriate way.
Ferguson: Did David Adeang concede that money had been misused or used inappropriately?
Foreign Minister: Well, you know, I would leave it to the President of Nauru to respond to that question specifically.
Ferguson: Don't we deserve, don't the taxpayers of Australia deserve a quicker answer to that question about whether their money is being used appropriately in that place?
Foreign Minister:What I would say to you is the same message that I have expressed to the Nauruans is that is our expectation is that Australian funds are appropriately spent.
Ferguson:There was an Opposition party room meeting today. I know you were...
Foreign Minister: ...doing other stuff.
Ferguson: ...doing other stuff with the Indonesians, but no doubt you've heard that the position against Net zero has firmed. Could I get your response to that?
Foreign Minister: Well, I'll say two things, you know, your aside about, you know, you were doing other things. Well, yes, we were working towards strengthening the security of the country, while the Opposition is having the same internal fight that they have had for over a decade. This is the same fight they have had and they still have no answer when it comes either to the energy transition or to climate change.
Ferguson: Penny Wong, on a big day and an unexpected one as well, very grateful to have you in the studio. Thank you.
Foreign Minister: Great to be here.