Dave Marchese, Host: Let's get into what all of this means for Australia with someone who is there, who is in New York, front and centre at these high level talks at the United Nations. And it is Australia's Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, who is with us now. Minister, thanks for joining us on Hack.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Really good to be with you, Dave.
Marchese: Donald Trump gave a big speech to the United Nations overnight and he said a few things. He criticised countries, including Australia for recognising Palestine. He described climate change as a con job, slammed the United Nations. What did you think of Donald Trump's speech?
Foreign Minister: Well, obviously, for me, that was this morning. And what I'd say is it really was a speech that was very similar to what President Trump has said both in his campaign to be President and also since the Presidency. So, his views on this are well documented and well known. Obviously, the Australian Government has a different view on many of these issues. But I was not surprised by the fact that he articulated again the issues that he's been saying for a long time now.
Marchese: I mean, we know the Prime Minister's locked in a meeting with Donald Trump in Washington next month. How do you think that's going to go, given that Australia does seem to be at odds with the United States on a lot of these big issues?
Foreign Minister: Look, I think it's important to remember the US is still our primary strategic partner, our most important strategic partner, and that American engagement as our ally and in our region has really underpinned a lot of the stability and peace and prosperity that Australia and the region have enjoyed. Second, there are things where we share important objectives, and there are things where we won't agree. And obviously, you've outlined some of them. I think people know what they are. We make decisions in Australia's sovereign interests.
Marchese: Minister, Australia formally recognised Palestine at the United Nations this week. What impact do you believe that's going to have on Palestinians, particularly those in Gaza?
Foreign Minister: Look, I'd like to respond sort of on two issues there, because I think there's two sets of questions, really. I guess the first is: why do we recognise? And we recognise for the very simple and powerful reason that the Palestinian people deserve their own state. And after over seven decades of having been promised their own state by the United Nations, Australia and other countries have taken a historic decision that is not only symbolic, but to say, yes, you are entitled to your own state and it's one of the most powerful things we can do and a message that we can send that Palestinians are entitled to their state and that the war must end. Now, the second point is absolutely the right question, how do we end this war? And the hard reality is, we know Australia can't end this war alone. So, what we have to do is to work with others to coordinate with the Arab states in the region, other countries, to try and contribute to peace. And obviously, the recognition announcement is one part of a number of things we've done, including sanctions on Israeli Ministers, $130 million in aid, and consistent international pressure on Mr Netanyahu and his government to agree to a ceasefire.
Marchese: I mean, Australians continue to be horrified by these scenes of death and destruction coming out of Gaza. Do you believe what's happening in Gaza is a genocide?
Foreign Minister: I certainly believe what is happening in Gaza is catastrophic and that the Israeli Government must accept their responsibility for this catastrophe. We've certainly been clear that we do believe that the denial of aid into Gaza is a breach of international law.
Marchese: Does Australia believe it's a genocide though, Minister?
Foreign Minister: Look, yeah, look, I've been asked that question a few times, and I think that, I'd make two points. And first, the point I just made, which is we do believe it's a breach of international law and Israel has to comply with international law. The second point I've made is that Israel will be judged in the international courts.
Marchese: The reason I'm pushing on the term genocide, Minister, is obviously words are important to a lot of people, particularly Palestinians, Palestinian-Australians, and we know Israel denies it's committing a genocide, but others are labelling it that. We've got one of the world's leading authorities on genocide, Omer Bartov, an Israeli-American, saying it's genocide. A team of independent experts commissioned by the UN, Amnesty International, Israel-based human rights groups, Australian international law experts. We had South Africa's President calling it a genocide this week, Spain's Prime Minister calling it a genocide, The Irish President has labelled it a genocide. What is going to be the threshold for Australia?
Foreign Minister: Well, first, the position we've always taken as a country is that questions relating to genocide are matters where we respect the independence of international courts and tribunals and their role in upholding international law. We already have the International Court of Justice, which is currently deliberating on South Africa's case against Israel under the Genocide Convention and made provisional orders in 2024. And we have said, I have said, that Israel has to comply with those orders.
Marchese: As a party to the Genocide Convention, Australia needs to employ all reasonable measures to prevent genocide wherever it may occur. Do you believe Australia is doing enough at the moment?
Foreign Minister: Look, we are doing all that we are able to in concert with other countries. And I think that is a really important point. Look, I understand why people want the war to end. I want the war to end. And want the suffering, the killing, the deaths of civilians, the humanitarian catastrophe, the famine, these are so distressing. The hard reality is, we know we can't end this war alone. So, what we have to focus on is how we work with other countries to coordinate, to have impact, to contribute to peace. And that's really what we've been trying to do. We engage very closely with the Arab countries of the region, and the steps we have taken have been in consultation with them and other partners, including Britain and Canada, because that's the way we have more impact.
Marchese: You're listening to Hack. I'm Dave Marchese. I'm speaking with Australia's Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, who's in New York at the United Nations this week. Hearing from you on the text line, someone says, 'still making excuses for the United States and Israeli governments. It makes me sick'. Another person says, 'Australia should quietly quit America and align with the rest of the world'. But then someone else says, 'good on you, Penny. We're between a bully and a hard place. What do we do? We are geographically vulnerable, both through our old allies and our needed allies. 'We've got to move on, Minister. And last month, Australia expelled Iran's Ambassador after alleging that Iran's government directed antisemitic attacks in Sydney and Melbourne. You've met with Iran's Foreign Minister today. The first high-level talks with Iran since that happened. How did that go?
Foreign Minister: Look, I think it's the right thing to do in these circumstances to look your counterpart in the eye and tell them exactly why you have made the decision you made. And that's what I did. And I explained to the Foreign Minister of Iran that a line was crossed, that what occurred was unacceptable, and that the government acted to protect its sovereign interest and expressed that it was completely unacceptable. So, I thought it was an important thing to do. Obviously, we hadn't had any discussions directly at my level until now, and I thought we needed to do that.
Marchese: Did Iran admit involvement in those attacks?
Foreign Minister: I think you would – I don't usually disclose everything that happens in diplomatic meetings, but I think, you know, obviously they would dispute these assertions. I have made it clear publicly, as I would privately, that we have confidence in the assessments and evidence and advice from Australia's security agencies.
Marchese: So, will the ambassador be coming back?
Foreign Minister: Well, we have a small group of Iranian diplomats at a working level who remain in Australia. We have suspended our operations in Tehran. You would know that there would be a lot of trust building to be required before we could start considering any change in position.
Marchese: Alright, Foreign Minister Penny Wong, thank you very much for joining us on Hack.
Foreign Minister: Really good to speak with you.