Raf Epstein, host: We're actually joined now for a bit of breaking news by the Foreign Minister, Penny Wong. Clearly Cabinet has finished meeting. Good morning, Minister, thanks for joining us.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good morning. Good to be with you.
Epstein: Just on the Iranian footballers, do you know if any more than the five will be seeking asylum?
Foreign Minister: I'll leave those announcements for Tony Burke. Obviously this has to be sensitively handled for the reasons, I'm sure you understand. What we have said publicly and the Prime Minister said again this morning, first, you know, we have said, we have told five members of the team they're welcome to stay, they are safe here and they should feel at home here. The Prime Minister also made it clear that we are open to other discussions with other team members.
Epstein: So, it's possible?
Foreign Minister: It's possible but that is obviously, you know, these are sensitive matters that have to be dealt with appropriately and I appreciate that the media has been responsible in how you have reported it, understanding that, you know, many of these team members will be returning to a country where we know there has been a crackdown on their own people.
Epstein: We've been speaking this morning about the surveillance plane and the air-to air-missiles. Why is Australia providing them?
Foreign Minister: This is defensive military assistance to Gulf countries. Remember that countries who have not attacked Iran are being targeted by Iran. And those countries include the United Arab Emirates, who we have a close relationship with. They have been forced to shoot down over 1,500 rockets and drones. They have seen their airport attacked. And there is a risk, not only to the citizens of the UAE, but Australians. We have a very large number of Australians in the region. At the outset of this conflict, I indicated some 24,000 Australians were in the United Arab Emirates. Some of those were transit passengers, most of them are people who live there. So, obviously we have an interest in protecting our people and that defensive interest is the basis of this deployment.
Epstein: Does it mean Australia is at war?
Foreign Minister: What Australia is participating is collective self-defence with the countries of the Gulf.
Epstein: Would you call it being at war?
Foreign Minister: I've used my words and what I've also said, and you would have seen me say this, and the Prime Minister also said this, we are not taking offensive action against Iran and we've been very clear we are not deploying Australian troops on the ground in Iran.
Epstein: Yeah, you all as a Cabinet repeatedly used the words defensive, not offensive this morning. Is that because you're worried the offensive part of the war is not legal?
Foreign Minister: It's because we are making sure that we focus very clearly on our national interest, which is how we protect Australians at home and abroad. And our judgement on that front is that we would provide these two capabilities to the United Arab Emirates. One is a Wedgetail, which is a plane which enables reconnaissance, it is a defensive capability, and also a defensive missile capability which is about intercepting missiles and drones.
Epstein: Is the war aim clear to you?
Foreign Minister: What is clear to me is what our aim is, and we've outlined that very clearly. We start with, well, what is our priority – that's to keep Australians safe at home and abroad. And that has informed our judgement about supporting action to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon and preventing Iran from continuing to be a threat to international peace and security. And we have seen Iran's behaviour, we've seen it over decades in the Middle East, where they have killed, through their proxies, countless people. We have seen it when they've cracked down on their own people, but we've seen it on Australian soil.
Epstein: But none of that's happened suddenly. Just to return to whether or not the war aim is clear, if the Trump administration is not clear day-to-day on what their aim is, shouldn't we worry about that?
Foreign Minister: What you do in situations where there is, you know, I think a lot of things said by many people, is to try and stay very focused on what your national interest is, what your priorities are and what decisions flow from that. And that's how the Government's approached this. And we've been very clear about the parameters for our engagement as well as the objectives for our engagement, because we speak for Australia. I've also been asked many times about other things which have been said, for example, about regime change, and I'll refer you to my public comments on that. I've said that we know that regime change has rarely sustainably been imposed externally, and we're very conscious of that.
Epstein: Penny Wong is the Foreign Minister speaking to you on 774. Minister, one plane, 85 extra personnel, some missiles, already have some people at the base in Dubai and other places in the Gulf. Is that it? Is there likely, or is it possible there'll be any more Australian military that needs to be committed?
Foreign Minister: This is the decision we've made in response to requests from Gulf countries for their assistance. And we've worked through this very carefully to provide what we think appropriate assistance and necessary assistance for their collective defence.
Epstein: But if it goes on, we might need to do more?
Foreign Minister: Well, I think there's always a lot of ifs, Raf, with respect. What I have said is the conflict is intensifying, it is widening, it is escalating, and that is a real concern. At some point, we have to find a way of moving to dialogue and diplomacy.
Epstein: You mentioned it's escalating. I think you said this morning that some aspects of this will get worse before it gets better. Donald Trump's not talking like that this morning. I just want to know, I don't know how much you are willing to say, do you think it's beginning to taper off or do you think it's getting worse?
Foreign Minister: What we can see is the Iranian attacks continue and in some areas have intensified and we can see that the spread of those attacks has not diminished. When you have some 12 countries, most of whom have not participated in strikes against Iran, being the subject of strikes, that tells you something about the behaviour of the regime.
Epstein: So, is the President over-optimistic?
Foreign Minister: Well, I don't think it's helpful for, and I appreciate why journalists always ask me to run commentary on what others have said. My job is to speak for Australian foreign policy and for Australia, and that's what I am doing.
Epstein: And just a few other matters and then, I realise your time is tight. If we offer asylum to the Iranian team, does that make us in any way more of a target?
Foreign Minister: The Prime Minister was asked that today and he made the point that we have seen Iran behave in ways that included targeting of Australians, included proxies engaging in terrorism overseas without, you know, as a matter of course, like this is the behaviour of the regime and we are all aware of that and it's one of the reasons why we have supported action to prevent or degrade Iran's capability of doing so.
Epstein: I don't want to leave no time for this, but I do want to ask the question, if Australians were on board the submarine and they torpedoed an Iranian navy ship, there was no effort made to rescue the Iranian sailors on that ship, is that potentially a war crime?
Foreign Minister: Two points, the Prime Minister has made the decision to make public the presence of Australians and he has also said that the Australians did not participate in that action. This was a US strike, a US decision.
Epstein: But it's getting very close to being – it is close to a war crime, isn't it, not to rescue people if you've torpedoed their ship and there were Australians on board that submarine, does that situation concern you?
Foreign Minister: I've responded to the Australian involvement or the absence of Australian involvement. And really this comes back to the same point I made earlier about the conflict. It is for the US and Israel, in general terms, to explain the legal basis of both the conflict and of action they take.
Epstein: Okay, thank you for your time this morning.
Foreign Minister: Thanks Raf, cheers.