Sally Sara, Host: The Federal Government is facing renewed pressure to indicate when it will recognise Palestinian statehood after authorities estimate more than 100,000 people marched over the Sydney Harbour Bridge calling for an end to the war in Gaza. Organisers of Sunday's rally are planning another protest this month. The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, is awaiting his request for a call with the Israeli PM. Overnight Benjamin Netanyahu signalled a push to expand military operations in Gaza amid stalled ceasefire talks with Hamas ahead of a security cabinet meeting later this week. Senator Penny Wong is the Minister for Foreign Affairs and I spoke to her a short time ago.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be with you, Sally.
Sara: The March across the Sydney Harbour Bridge and other marches around the country on the weekend, they exceeded organisers expectations with turnout, and received international attention. Have these events accelerated the government's pathway to recognising Palestinian statehood?
Foreign Minister: First on the marches, they didn't exceed my expectations. I think the distress of Australians on what we are seeing unfolding in Gaza, the catastrophic humanitarian situation, the deaths of women and children, the withholding of aid, I anticipated that we would see marches of this scale. They do reflect the broad Australian community's horror at what is going on in the Middle East, and the desire for peace and a ceasefire, which is what the government is seeking. In relation to recognition, I've said for over a year now it's a matter of when, not if. I would say, Sally, there is a risk there will be no Palestine left to recognise if the international community don't move to create that pathway to a two-state solution.
Sara: Hamas has warned in a statement over the weekend that it would not lay down its arms until an independent state of Palestine was established. Where does this sit with Australia's intention to recognise a Palestinian state?
Foreign Minister: Hamas is a terrorist organisation and we have sanctioned it and condemned it and we have said very clearly that Hamas needs to, must release the hostages. I think we were all horrified to watch the depraved spectacle of Evyatar David and Rom Braslavski, two hostages being paraded in the way that they were. What I would say is the government's view is the same as the 600 former Israeli security officials, who have written publicly, urging Prime Minister Netanyahu to end the war and making the very important point that the end of the war is the only way to save the hostages. In relation to Hamas, what I would say is that we have seen very important comments, statements and commitments both from the Palestinian Authority and the Arab League about Hamas, condemning Hamas and its actions, its actions as a terrorist organisation. We do have a unique opportunity at this moment in the world, Sally, to isolate a terrorist organisation which can never be part of peace.
Sara: When we look at Israel, you've held discussions with the Israeli Ambassador to Australia and the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, has labelled denials of starvation by the Israeli officials as beyond comprehension. Is the Israeli delegation listening to or accepting Australia's position?
Foreign Minister: Well, I speak for Australia and what I do in these meetings with foreign counterparts is to express Australia's position, and my position in relation – and Australia's position in relation – to the delivery of aid is clear and it is public. We believe it is a breach of international law to stop food being delivered, which is the decision Israel made in March.
Sara: What's your view on potentially taking action against the Israeli diplomatic mission here? Is that an option that you would consider or is it more important, in your view, to have the mission here so that discussions can continue?
Foreign Minister: Our general proposition is that we have to have dialogue with countries, we have to have engagement. That is an avenue to express disagreement, as well as agreement. And so whatever the country, we don't have diplomatic relations for their interest. We have diplomatic relations for our interests.
Sara: Will Australia impose further sanctions on Israel?
Foreign Minister: As you know, we have already sanctioned two Israeli Ministers for human rights abuses of Palestinians. And as you would also know, we have, over a year ago, sanctioned extremist settlers and settler organisations for their part in both, in the human rights abuses of Palestinians. In relation to any further sanctions, I would make two points: we don't speculate on sanctions for the obvious reason that they have more effect if they are not flagged. And the second point I make is our preference is to move with others, other countries because then sanctions have more effect. That is what we have done.
Sara: Do you fear that Israel is preparing for a full occupation of Gaza?
Foreign Minister: Again, I speak for Australia and what I would say is this – it has been my long held position that there will be no peace and security for the people of Israel unless we resolve to a Palestinian state. That has been my view for decades. It remains my view and it remains the position of the Australian Government.
Sara: On another matter, the Australian Federal Police have charged a Chinese national with foreign interference. This is a case which is still proceeding. What is Australia's message in general to foreign governments about any attempts to conduct foreign interference on Australian soil?
Foreign Minister: Sally, first, obviously, I won't comment on a case that's before the courts, but as a matter of general principle, I would say this: we safeguard our democracy. Our democracy is important to us, it's central to who we are. We safeguard it. We do not tolerate harassment, intimidation, surveillance of Australians and we have a strong framework to deter foreign interference in our democracy.
Sara: How much added concern is there from the government about the potential targeting of community targets in operations of foreign interference?
Foreign Minister: I have been asked about this by various communities when this is raised, and we speak to them about the framework which is in place and the ways in which they can contact authorities if they have concerns. It's up to all of us to protect the democracy. And the government is very clear about it being unacceptable for Australians to be targeted.
Sara: If we're returning briefly to the issue of Gaza, there is talk of a planned national day of action. Would the government support that?
Foreign Minister: The right of peaceful protest is a democratic right in Australia. What I would say is that we do need to make sure that in how we express our views on this that we recognise the importance of social cohesion in our community and the importance of never allowing our differences to descend into hate and prejudice. I think by and large we've seen many, many Australians who marched over the weekend were there in support of peace.
Sara: Labor MP Ed Husic took part in the March in Sydney, and he was saying he was seeing members of what he was describing as middle Australia there, is that the way that the government was seeing it as well?
Foreign Minister: I think that's obvious. And I knew many people who took part in these marches, and I think many Australians who don't have necessarily long-term connections with the region are simply horrified by what they see. We also know that we have many communities here who are directly affected, both Jewish Australians and Palestinian and Arab Australians. What we want to do is to work with others, to bring about, to do all we can, even though we're not a central player, to bring about peace. We want the hostages released, we want a ceasefire, and we want aid to flow into Gaza unimpeded.
Sara: Finally, has the National Security Committee of Cabinet made a decision on the purchasing of frigates for the Royal Australian Navy?
Foreign Minister: You wouldn't expect me to discuss matters that go to the NSC, Sally. But good try, good try.
Sara: It is my job to try. How important is Australia's relationship with Germany and Japan when it comes to this frigate decision?
Foreign Minister: What I've said publicly on this decision, and all decisions, is we make a decision on the basis of capability and the best deal for Australian taxpayers and the best capability for the Australian Defence Force.
Sara: Penny Wong, Minister for Foreign Affairs, thank you for joining me on Breakfast.
Foreign Minister: Thanks very much, Sally.