Sally Sara, Host: Minister, welcome back to Breakfast.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good morning, good to be with you, Sally.
Sara: Chris Sidoti, a current member of the UN Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory says that Israeli President, Isaac Herzog, should be arrested by the federal police for the crime of incitement to genocide when he arrives on his visit to Australia next week. Is Australia obliged to take such action under international law?
Foreign Minister: Well Sally, President Herzog is coming to Australia to honour the victims of the worst antisemitic terror attack in our country's history at Bondi. He's coming to provide support to the Australian Jewish community. The community asked for President Herzog to visit, and he's been invited by the Governor‑General at the request of the Prime Minister.
Sara: Has the federal government taken any advice on the legal circumstances surrounding President Herzog?
Foreign Minister: We always consider legal advice in relation to our obligations. I'd make the point we have invited him.
Sara: On the allegations of genocide before the International Court of Justice, Chris Sidoti had this to say.
Audio of Chris Sidoti, member of the UN Commission of inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory: It doesn't take an actual genocide to occur for the incitement to occur. The incitement only needs to be the encouragement, the urging of genocide, whether or not anybody acts on it. So to that extent, any finding by the International Court of Justice in the genocide case is not relevant to the charge of incitement.
Sara: On legal terms, you've talked about what happened with Bondi and the protocol and the reasons for inviting President Herzog, but purely in a legal sense, why does the Australian Government think that it is not required to arrest or attempt to arrest President Herzog?
Foreign Minister: A couple of points, Sally. I have said previously that Israel will be judged by the International Court of Justice on its compliance with the Genocide Convention, and I've also said previously that it must accept its responsibility for the humanitarian situation in Gaza. But let's again go back to the context of this visit. We have the Australian Jewish community, who have been targeted in an overtly antisemitic terrorist attack, we have had 15 Australians die, we have families mourning, and this was a request from the Jewish community for President Herzog to visit. He is here to provide support to that community and to honour the victims of this horrific terror attack.
Sara: Minister, on other issues, you're travelling to Indonesia later today to sign a bilateral security pact. How significant is this agreement, and how do you view the current relationship between Indonesia and Australia?
Foreign Minister: Well, this is the biggest step that Australia and Indonesia have taken together to strengthen our partnership in 30 years. So this is a most important step we have taken in over three decades, and it is all about us elevating our cooperation, taking it to a higher level so that we can work together to secure peace and stability for our nations and for the region, and I think we all understand the circumstances we face. It's a much more disrupted, much more challenging set of circumstances we face in our region and globally. So, part of how the Government is working to secure peace and stability for Australia is to work with partners in the region, and Indonesia is central to Australia's security. So, I'm really honoured to be part of the visit. I was really pleased to work with Foreign Minister Sugiono to prepare for the President and the Prime Minister's announcement of this, the intention, and it will be an important day for our country when the Prime Minister signs this with President Prabowo.
Sara: You met with your German counterpart yesterday. Is Australia trying to forge closer relationships with other middle powers given the unpredictability of the current situation and the foreign policy of the US?
Foreign Minister: Well, the single answer to that is yes, Sally, of course we are. I have talked before about the importance of middle powers. I've called it amplified middle power diplomacy. It means that like-minded countries around the world have to work together to ensure open trade, peace and stability and that we work together to assure those things. Now the United States remains our most important strategic partner, and we were very pleased at the very positive visit that the Prime Minister had with President Trump, but we recognise we have to do more than that, we have to work in our region, and we have to work with other middle powers, and I'm very pleased to welcome Foreign Minister Wadephul to Australia.
Sara: On Donald Trump's Board of Peace proposal, has the federal government made a decision yet, Minister, as to whether Australia will join?
Foreign Minister: Sally, the Board of Peace proposal would involve Australia being part of a treaty. Obviously, that is a different kind of arrangement to those which we would generally engage in for these sorts of matters. We are obviously considering it but I would say we continue to work closely with the United States, particularly in the context of the Quad, and also AUKUS, in our shared interests.
Sara: New Zealand has been able to make a decision. Are we far off making a decision ourselves?
Foreign Minister: Look I think, you know, we are working through this and seeking to understand more closely what the US is seeking to do through the Board of Peace. Obviously, one of the issues that we are interested in is the peace plan for Gaza. It is so important after what we have seen over the last two years that we work towards peace, and the objective that we've been really clear about, which is peace and security for both Palestinians and Israelis and two states.
Sara: Do you support the right of Australians who wish to protest against the visit of Israeli President Isaac Herzog to Australia – do you support their right to demonstrate?
Foreign Minister: Look, we are a country, a democracy, where we know people have differences of views, and I do understand very keenly that people have different views about this visit, and there is depth of feeling in different communities across Australia, you know, we see that, we feel that. What I would ask people to recall is the context and circumstances of this visit and the purpose of it, which is to honour the victims of the antisemitic terror attack, which we all know was so traumatic, and to provide support to the Australian Jewish community.
Sara: Just finally, Labor backbencher, Ed Husic, says he's very uncomfortable with the visit. When we're talking about social cohesion, what's your message to those who might be feeling the same; they may be feeling uncomfortable or angry about the visit of the Israeli President?
Foreign Minister: As I said, I really do understand the depth of feeling about this visit, the depth of feeling in the community about what we've seen in Gaza over the last two years, which is why we've been so clear about working with, pressing for peace with others in the international community, for civilians to be protected and for aid to flow. But this visit is about a mourning Jewish community, and I would ask Australians to recall that.
Sara: Minister, thank you for joining me again on the program. I appreciate it.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you.