Raf Epstein, Host: It has taken 77 years, but Australia will now recognise Palestine as a state. It is being done in diplomatic coordination with Spain, France, Britain, Ireland and Canada. Penny Wong is the Foreign Minister, good morning.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good morning. Good to be with you, Raf.
Epstein: Would recognition have happened without those ongoing weekly pro-Palestine protests in Melbourne?
Foreign Minister: The key driver for this decision has been how do we work with others to break the cycle of violence in the Middle East – I've been saying for over a year now, Raf, that it is a question of when, not if. I've been saying for over a year that what we want to look at is when is our best opportunity to contribute to international momentum? When can we work best with others to break the cycle of violence in the Middle East, which ultimately requires a secure state for both Israel and for Palestine, that is the way to lasting peace and security. So, the work we've been doing over the last year, since I first raised the prospect of recognition, has been to work with others. And you've seen, as you said in your introduction, a lot of coordination and diplomatic work between countries in the lead up to September.
Epstein: Did the protests add to that momentum?
Foreign Minister: I know what so many in the Australian community feel. I know the distress, the anger, the horror that so many Australians feel about this and I share that. I think all of us do when we see what is happening in Gaza. Question is, how do we respond to it? And the best way we can respond is to work with others. But in relation to recognition, what I would say is this is an opportunity. It's our best opportunity to contribute to international momentum and to contribute to changing what we are seeing. I said yesterday if we keep doing the same thing and hoping for a better outcome, that is not a pathway to peace.
Epstein: Can I ask about that then? Forgive me, Foreign Minister, but if Palestinians deserve a state now, didn't they deserve it years ago? We were doing the same thing for years. So, if they deserved it now, haven't they deserved it for a long time?
Foreign Minister: We are recognising Palestine in September and we're doing it with others and that matters. And I appreciate there are strong views on this issue. It's taken 77 years. We were one of the first countries to put our hand up in support of the establishment of the State of Israel. We also were – the Australian Foreign Minister chaired the UN committee which recommended two states. It has taken a long time for this decision to be made by an Australian Government, but it is a decision we have made.
Epstein: And would this have happened, with all of these questions, I guess I'm just trying to get at the government's motivations – would this have happened if Palestinians hadn't been starving?
Foreign Minister: The motivation is peace and security. That's the motivation. Of course we're motivated by what we are seeing. Of course we're motivated by international action and what others are doing. Of course we're motivated by the historic commitments that the Palestinian Authority and the Arab League have made where they have made clear that they want to work to end Hamas' grip in Gaza. I mean, these are very important commitments. We're motivated also by what I have said for many months now, we want a ceasefire, we want the hostages to be released, we want aid to flow. Of course, all of these things are brought to bear on a decision a government makes, a very big decision about when is the best time for Australia to make this move, when can it have impact, and we believe that the time is now.
Epstein: Penny Wong is the Foreign Minister. You're listening to 774 ABC Radio Melbourne. Penny Wong, the Israeli Prime Minister mentioned Melbourne – he said yesterday that Australia would have hit back even harder than Israel has if Melbourne had been attacked in the same way. Is he right?
Foreign Minister: Any government, their first priority is the security of their people. Of course that is the case. But there are two points I'd make. The first is that any government is also bound by international law, international humanitarian law, in their response and we've said that from the beginning. The second point I'd make is long-term security for the people of Israel can only come if the Palestinian statehood is dealt with. And I think history shows that, that if there is not a resolution of the aspirations of the Palestinian people, then there is no path to long-term peace and security for the Israeli people. Now, I appreciate Prime Minister Netanyahu and some in his government don't agree with that, but I think history confirms that.
Epstein: You said countries need to abide by international law. Has Israel broken international law?
Foreign Minister: Well, you've heard the Prime Minister and I both say that the withholding of aid from civilians would be a breach of international law.
Epstein: So, would be or has been?
Foreign Minister: I would say that forcible permanent displacement of civilians is a breach of international law. I think we all know that there are real concerns about the actions of the Netanyahu Government. And that has resulted in the sorts of statements that we have joined, Raf.
Epstein: We've spoken just then about the strength of the pro-Palestine feeling in Melbourne. Equally, there are Jewish Melbournians and others, pro-Israel groups who feel betrayed by this. What are you saying to those pro-Israel groups privately about this?
Foreign Minister: Well, I'll say publicly what I believe, and first is that there is no long-term path to peace and security for Israelis unless there is the establishment of a Palestinian state. That is my view and has always been my view. But the second, broader point, and there is a special responsibility, I think, for the Victorian community and particularly those in Melbourne, we are a proud multicultural society. We have welcomed people from all over the world, including me and many others. And part of what makes us who we are and part of what makes Melbourne such a wonderful city is that diversity. And what we need to do to safeguard that is to ensure we can have differences, but we can do so respectfully to ensure we don't simply condemn others because they have a different view and to ensure that we never allow hatred and prejudice to become prevalent. Jewish Australians are entitled to be safe and to feel safe. Muslim Australians are entitled to feel part of the Australian community. And that doesn't just happen. And it isn't just governments that enable that to happen, it's something we all have a responsibility for, to safeguard the character of who we are and to safeguard the character of the wonderful city that Melbourne is.
Epstein: Does that convince people? I'm sure there are pro-Israel people who say they feel betrayed. Does that argument convince them?
Foreign Minister: People are entitled to their view. I don't believe it is a betrayal to argue for a position which ultimately is the way to assure security and peace for all the peoples of the region.
Epstein: And final question for you, Foreign Minister. Is Israel targeting and killing journalists in Gaza?
Foreign Minister: Look, I've seen those reports. I have said before, we want journalists to be protected. Journalists are entitled to be protected. There's a special responsibility in relation to journalists. Just as there is in relation to humanitarian workers.
Epstein: Is Israel abandoning that responsibility?
Foreign Minister:Well, I express my concern along with others at what we have seen over these last 48 hours in Gaza. And again say we would call on Israel and the IDF to ensure that civilians are protected and that journalists and aid workers are protected.
Epstein: Penny Wong is the Foreign Minister. Thanks so much for joining us.
Foreign Minister: Thank you, Raf.