Peter Stefanovic, Host: It's been described as a watershed moment, a new security treaty involving Australia and Indonesia. Once it's officially signed in January, it'll commit both sides to consult and consider joint actions in the event of a threat against one or both nations. Joining us live is the Foreign Minister, Penny Wong. Minister, it's good to have you with us this morning. So, if it's not a defence treaty like the one we signed with PNG, what does it exactly mean? What threats and what actions could follow? If you could give me an example.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good morning Pete, good to be with you. This is a treaty on what we call common security. It is a historic agreement that will commit us both to work together to secure our common security. It's about the stronger relationship with our largest neighbour. And obviously, we know that these are times where we have a lot of contest and competition in the world and what the Albanese Government is very focused on is how do we strengthen Australia's security? How do we keep Australians more secure? And fundamentally, one of the key things we need to do is to have better, stronger relationships in our region. That is what this does.
Stefanovic: And I think that's good, but I'm just after an example. If you could provide one of what would classify as an attack and then what could classify as a likely response involving Australia and Indonesia together.
Foreign Minister: Well, what we would need to do if one of us was perceived or felt that we were under threat is consult with each other. That's what this obligation means. It means we consult, we work together, we cooperate together, and we take action together if we both deem that's necessary. So it's a different type of relationship with Indonesia. And given our geography, you will understand why having that sort of trusted, trusting relationship matters a lot.
Stefanovic: So, would that be military action?
Foreign Minister: It's not good for Foreign Ministers to get into hypotheticals but what the treaty does contemplate is us talking to each other about what action we can take. And obviously it comes on the back of the Defence Cooperation Agreement that the Minister for Defence, Richard Marles, struck last year, which enables us to operate more effectively together. So, what we are seeing is this government, the Albanese Government, recognising the circumstances we live in and saying one of the things we really need to do is anchor Australian security in the region. We have the alliance with Papua New Guinea, our nearest neighbour, and now this treaty with Indonesia, our largest neighbour.
Stefanovic: Okay, I know you don't want to hypothesise. And you want to be careful with your words, given the role that you have. But let's just say, if China, for an example, made a move on us, either here or in the disputed waters of the South China Sea, it's so hot and contested there, we know all of that. What would an example be, what would Indonesia's response or our involvement be for something like that.
Foreign Minister: In relation to the South China Sea, our position is really clear, Pete. We will continue to exercise our rights under international law, our rights of freedom of navigation and freedom of overflight. And an interesting point here is that the Law of the Sea, which is what Australia is asserting in the South China Sea, Indonesia was the country centrally involved in enabling that law to become real, like they were part of creating the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. And this is a reminder of why this cooperation is so important.
Stefanovic: So, Indonesia obviously has its own relationship with China. It's part of BRICS etc., and there's been no response from China yet that I can see. So, do we assume that China is OK with this latest arrangement?
Foreign Minister: Well, I don't speak for China, Peter. I speak for Australia.
Stefanovic: Ok, well, China has pushed back in Vanuatu and it's given the government roughly about $100 million in recent upgrades. Does that set back our plans? I know you've done well with PNG and now Indonesia, does that set back our plans for Vanuatu and a security deal there?
Foreign Minister: When it comes to the Pacific, I've been really clear and upfront with Australians. We are in a permanent contest, a permanent contest for influence and we know China will continue to press its interests. We know what our interests are. And our interests are in the Pacific Islands Forum being strong. That is the forum which has all members of the Pacific. Our interests are in security being provided by members of the Pacific family. Our interests are in being an engaged, responsive Pacific partner. And we have been very focused on doing that and we'll continue to do that.
Stefanovic: Are you still confident that you can get this deal over the line with Vanuatu?
Foreign Minister: I know that we have a very strong relationship with Vanuatu. I know that we'll continue to engage with them, just as we continue to engage very closely with Fiji, where the Prime Minister, Prime Minister Albanese and Prime Minister Rabuka, have talked about wanting a stronger relationship and a more formalised relationship.
Stefanovic: Back on Indonesia, and just as an aside to the security treaty, did the jailed Australian Lamar Ahchee come up at all in conversations with the President yesterday?
Foreign Minister: Look, I don't engage on many of these consular matters publicly. Obviously we will make representations as appropriate.
Stefanovic: Let's just get to other matters in Canberra today and from across the aisle, can I ask your view on the Liberals as they head into a second meeting today to likely and formally oppose net zero moving forward?
Foreign Minister: 15 years of the climate wars inside the Liberal Party has led to leadership changes and instability and division on their side but what it's also led to is high energy prices. You know let's remember under the Coalition government we had 24 out of 28 coal fired power stations saying we're going to exit. That's because the private sector needs policy certainty to invest, and what happens when you have this sort of division is there isn't investment, energy exits the system which leads to higher energy prices. So we have to continue to have policy certainty and clarity and that's what our government is delivering.
Stefanovic: Ok we'll leave it there. The Foreign Minister Penny Wong, thanks as always for your time.