Patricia Karvelas, Host: Penny Wong, welcome to Afternoon Briefing.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Great to be with you.
Karvelas: Donald Trump has urged everyone to evacuate Tehran. What is our diplomatic presence in Tehran? Are we evacuating Australians?
Foreign Minister: First, in relation to this conflict, Patricia, we continue to urge de-escalation and the prioritisation of dialogue and diplomacy, along with so many countries of the world. And of course, we are concerned about what we are seeing. We are prioritising the safety of our personnel and their dependents in Tehran, and ensuring they are in the safest possible position. And I would say we have also made our expectations as to the safety of our staff very clear with the Israeli government.
Karvelas: When you say you have made that clear with the Israeli government, in what form has that been communicated and what are your expectations around that?
Foreign Minister: The location of aerial bombardment is obviously in Israeli hands and you would expect that we have made appropriate representations both through me but also through other diplomatic channels.
Karvelas: Are you worried that Australians in Tehran, working for the Australian Government, may come under fire?
Foreign Minister: The safety of our staff and their families is of the utmost priority and that is how we are responding.
Karvelas: Can you give me a sense of how many Australians we have there?
Foreign Minister: In relation to not just DFAT personnel but people who have registered with us seeking to leave, the numbers are, as I anticipated, increasing quite rapidly. We have around 650 people - Australians and their dependents – who have registered with us in Iran seeking to leave. We have about 600 in Israel who have also registered with us seeking to leave. As you know, we are making plans to assist Australians when it is safe to do so, to safety. But at the moment, the air space continues to be closed and the reason for that is the risk to civilian aircraft of a strike. So, obviously, we will continue to prepare plans to assist Australians to safety when it is safe to do so.
Karvelas: Are there other options for evacuating Australians out of both of those countries and having flights that leave from other countries? Are you pursuing other options?
Foreign Minister: We're looking at all options and we are assessing very carefully the security implications, or the security status of various options. We will provide the assistance we can to get people to safety, when it is safe to do so.
Karvelas: G7 leaders including President Trump have issued a joint statement on the Middle East, I am sure you are across it this afternoon. They say many things in it but they say, “We, the leaders of the G7, reiterate our commitment to peace and stability in the Middle East.” And they say, “In this context, we affirm that Israel has a right to defend itself. We reiterate our support for the security of Israel.” Does Australia agree with this statement?
Foreign Minister: We welcome the statement which goes to many matters - peace and stability in the Middle East, the ceasefire in Gaza, as well as the assurance of security for Israel. I have long said that we want to see security and peace for Israelis and for Palestinians, and for the people of the region which is why whether it is in relation to Gaza where we have been on the record for a long time urging ceasefire, release of hostages and a return to dialogue, we also in relation to the current conflict echo the same position, the United Kingdom, France and even President Trump has articulated, which is dialogue and diplomacy are needed. We need to avoid a regional escalation, Patricia, because that would really put at risk so many people in the region.
Karvelas: Australia, as you just said, has been urging de-escalation but we know from reporting that the US is weighing up looking at whether they might be involved in some way, there is the diplomatic route but then there is another way - they are looking at, whether they would involve their own equipment to destroy the deeply buried nuclear enrichment facility in Fordow, which only American bunker-busters can do. Is Australia opposed to this action if the US decides to take it?
Foreign Minister: I would make a few points – one is, I note that the Secretary of State's language is that the US is maintaining what it described as a defensive posture. But I’d come back to the central point, everybody agrees Iran is the threat - it is. It has been a destabilising force in the region for many years. It has proxies throughout the region. It has avowedly been very clear about its stated intentions in relation to the destruction of the state of Israel. Having said that, we also know that their nuclear capabilities - the potential nuclear capability – is not only a risk to Israel but to international peace and security. That is why we have sanctions on Iran. That is why we have been part of supporting the International Atomic Energy Agency in its assessment of Iran not being in compliance with its nuclear non-proliferation obligations.
Foreign Minister: But the question is, in responding, are we risking a regional escalation which brings in risk to more civilians and more countries. The reason we are arguing for dialogue and de-escalation is because we are concerned about regional conflict, and we are not alone. This is the same position that world leaders across so many countries have articulated.
Karvelas: That is right but at the same time, obviously, Israel has begun a process of trying to basically get rid of a lot of these sites but they can’t do anything on Fordow is the reporting. Do you think it is too risky for the United States to get involved, to involve their military with dealing with that?
Foreign Minister: I am simply saying the same thing that Prime Minister Starmer, President Macron, and so many world leaders have said, which is there is a real risk of regional escalation, with all the risks that brings to all the peoples of the region. A return to dialogue, de-escalation, is called for.
Karvelas: Big news today domestically has been that Donald Trump leaving the G7 early means his meeting of course with our own Prime Minister has been cancelled. It appears we were not given any warning, is that disappointing?
Foreign Minister: I think we all understand what's happening in the Middle East and why President Trump felt it necessary to leave the G7 early. Obviously, we looked forward to another meeting being scheduled between the President and the Prime Minister. Obviously, they have spoken three times now by phone – they have been very constructive conversations. We were amongst a number of countries whose bilateral meetings were not able to proceed because world events or particular regional events in the Middle East required President Trump's attention. We understand that.
Karvelas: There's a short time frame now for the AUKUS review to unfold in the United States. Would the Prime Minister be pushing to get another meeting with Donald Trump scheduled in that time frame before that review of AUKUS completes?
Foreign Minister: I will leave the Prime Minister to talk about what the Prime Minister will do. What I would say is this - AUKUS is a very good deal for all three countries. It certainly is a good deal for the United States. It gives the US more maintenance capability, which keeps their subs in the water longer. It gives the US better access to the Indian Ocean. It gives the US and the United Kingdom more capability in terms of submarine production. So, there are near-term benefits to the US - including Australians already working in Hawaii on - as well as medium-term benefits. We look forward to the opportunity to contribute to the review and put this perspective. As you know, this is an agreement which will require administrations of both political persuasions, Australian governments over many years to continue to support and safeguard. We are confident that this is an agreement that has strong benefits for us, for the United Kingdom and also for the United States.
Karvelas: The federal Opposition Leader Sussan Ley says the Government should have done more to secure a meeting with Donald Trump and that it should not have relied on this idea of having a sideline meeting, what is your response to that criticism because we are seven months in and there has not been a face-to-face meeting with Donald Trump.
Foreign Minister: What I say to the Opposition Leader is it is possible to back Australia and still be an opposition leader and I think it is probably time that they learnt the difference. We know what's happening in the world and we also know that we speak most strongly as a country when we speak together. And I think it is beyond time for the opposition to continue playing politics with these big national interests. It is time for them to back Australia and that is what they should be doing.
Karvelas: They are pointing out that lots of other world leaders have had face-to-face meetings a couple of times and that our Prime Minister has not had one. The one that was planned has been cancelled, does that cancellation then, Foreign Minister, necessitate a trip to Washington quite urgently for our Prime Minister?
Foreign Minister: Again, what I would say - I don't know if the Opposition has noticed there is a Middle East conflict, it is very serious conflict. It is completely understandable that President Trump had to leave the G7. Obviously, bilaterals with other leaders including India did not proceed as well and we understand that. But I think it is time for the Opposition, really to back what is in the interests of Australia.
Karvelas: On the sense of urgency around this meeting, does Australia regard it as a meeting that has a sense of urgency, that needs to happen imminently?
Foreign Minister: I'll leave it to the Prime Minister to determine how he wishes to, again, look to rescheduling engagement with the President. But I again go back to the core issue, AUKUS is a good deal for the United States, it is a good deal for Australia and a good deal for the United Kingdom and it is an important part of playing our role in assuring peace and prosperity in our region and beyond.
Karvelas: Just finally, Foreign Minister, the Acting Prime Minister Richard Marles said yesterday Australia will inevitably be drawn into a US-China conflict with the continent now more relevant than ever to this contest between these two great world powers. Is that how you view it?
Foreign Minister: I think the Government is very clear; our objective is to assure peace, assure peace and prosperity in our region and that includes deterrence and making sure that any potential aggressor recognises that the risk of conflict outweighs any potential benefit. What we do both through reassurance of peaceful intent, but also deterrence is all about assuring peace and prosperity in the region.
Karvelas: Paul Keating has described it as a dark moment in history, these comments by Richard Marles, do you think that is a fair assessment?
Foreign Minister: Mr Keating makes a lot of comments, and he is entitled to his views.
Karvelas: They are not dark though? The idea that we would be involved and part of this conflict?
Foreign Minister: I think if you look at what the Deputy Prime Minister, in the Defence Strategic Review, what the Prime Minister and I have said, our objective is to avoid war. Our objective is to preserve peace and prosperity in the region and we do that both by deterrence - and that matters, our capability matters - and we also do it by reassurance of our peaceful intent.
Karvelas: Foreign Minister, thank you for joining us this afternoon.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you.