Minmin Low, Host: Yes, it's a busy week here in Manila at ASEAN Foreign Ministers' Meeting because we have so many foreign ministers from various countries from the EU to China to, of course, the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio is here as well. And joining me here live is Penny Wong, the Foreign Minister of Australia. Minister Wong, thank you so much for giving us your time. I want to start with the latest news that we got this morning, just hours ago. The Israel Embassy has blasted the Labor Government's draft program on Israel and Palestine, saying it's one-sided. We know Netanyahu has always been opposed to the two-state solution and said that that's led to a rise in antisemitic feelings in Australia. What is your response to the latest embassy statement?
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Well, I would simply say this. The government of Australia's position, and I think the Australian community's position, is we want to see a two-state solution. We want to see both Israelis and Palestinians being able to live in peace and security behind borders, which are recognised and negotiated. We want to see peace in the Middle East. And obviously the platform, which is a decision for the national conference of the party, that's a matter for the party to determine. But the government's position is clear.
Low: And we are meeting now under the shadows of war. Marco Rubio will be here. I wonder, will you be meeting with him bilaterally? And what message do you have for him, especially about the Middle East war which has brought, of course, a lot of inflation for Australia.
Foreign Minister: Well, first I'd make the point that, we've said for some time, like so many countries, we want to see de-escalation. You're right, the conflict in the Middle East has been impacting on all of our peoples. We know that when we look at the Strait of Hormuz and what comes through that, that 80 per cent of that fuel is destined for the markets of Asia. And so, the countries of our region have all felt it. So, we all want to see a resolution. That does take both sides. It takes the Iranian regime negotiating in good faith and also stopping its proxies seeking to escalate the situation.
Low: When it comes to Australia's relations with the US it doesn't seem like the US is treating its allies better than the rest of the world. You haven't secured tariff exemptions; AUKUS is seeing delays. What specific levers does Australia have to secure your strategic interests with the US?
Foreign Minister: I want to start with the end of that question because securing our strategic interests is the right question. But it's a question that goes to a broader question than simply the United States. Which comes to why I'm here. I mean, as you said in your introduction, ASEAN is central. ASEAN is geographically central to the region. When we say we support ASEAN centrality, it's not just an abstract concept. If you're in Australia, you look up, it is ASEAN at the centre of our region. And stability and peace in the Indo-Pacific requires a strong ASEAN at its core. And times are tough. We see greater geopolitical contest; we see behaviour which is destabilising. We see a lot of challenges for peace and security. So, what Australia seeks to do is to first work in our region, secondly to engage on our relationships, of which obviously the US is our principal strategic partner, but in addition, we engage with many other countries. Thirdly, we support international law and rules and finally also our economic and national resilience. So, we take an approach which really says, we recognise these are difficult times, we recognise that we have to work to assure peace and stability and our sovereignty. Our relationship with the United States is a part of that, a very important part, but so too is our relationship with our region, which is why we are here.
Low: There has certainly been a lot of disruption in the recent years and that has shifted public perception. If you look at the Lowy poll in Australia, about a third now believes they can't trust Washington to be a responsible player. And for the first time, a majority believes that your relationship with China is more important than your relationship with the US. Is that reshaping your foreign policy or causing you to reprioritise your relations?
Foreign Minister: We make judgments about what we think is in Australia's national interests and our principal strategic relationship remains with the United States, but it's not the only relationship we have, and we recognise we have to work harder in our region. I've come today from an engagement with the Philippines Coast Guard where we worked on the next part of our partnership and we made announcements about that. We have a strong relationship with Japan, with the Republic of Korea, and we signed a treaty on common security with Indonesia. So, we are really working hard across a range of areas to secure stability and peace, which is what we all want. China has always been important to Australia. It's our largest economic partner, our largest trading partner. And you know, the way we have approached the relationship is to say to China "we want to cooperate where we can, we will disagree where we must'. There will be areas where we don't have the same view and we have to have the capacity to be clear about that with each other and do so respectfully. And we must continue to engage because China is an important player in the region and in the world.
Low: So, when it comes to your relationship with China, I think one of the biggest sticking points is trade and the mining relationship, because China created this agency to centralise their imports, it's putting downward pressure on pricing for companies like Rio Tinto, Fortescue. How concerned is the Australian Government about the impact on the economy? And is Canberra going to do anything about this?
Foreign Minister: These are first and foremost commercial negotiations, and we want open, predictable trade and reasonable arrangements between our two countries.
Low: Okay, but you may say that it's a corporate negotiation, but from China's point of view, they have the state very much involved in those negotiations. So, is the Australian state stepping in?
Foreign Minister: Well, you know, yes, we are different political systems. Ultimately these are arrangements that will have to be negotiated between countries. You would anticipate, obviously we have an interest. But you know, we hope there will be a mutually beneficial outcome achieved for all parties.
Low: So, of course, we're here for the ASEAN Foreign Ministers' Meeting where the South China Sea is always top of the agenda and the Philippines just accused China of injuring one of their sailors. I know Australia has been participating in freedom of navigation patrols. Do you foresee any changes in the posture or frequency of these patrols or what else is Australia prepared to do?
Foreign Minister: As a matter of principle, what I would say to you is that ensuring that the law of the sea is observed matters to us all. It's not a question of whose side you are on. It's not a question of which great power you look to. The rules under UNCLOS, the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, have been central to stability, peace and our prosperity in our region. So, actually we all have an interest, regardless of what view one takes on the geopolitical competition, we all have an interest in ensuring great powers and middle powers, as well as smaller powers, observe the law of the sea and that will continue to be Australia's position.
Low: And we know that China has recently been testing long-range missiles in the Pacific. How confident is Australia that you could prevent China from gaining access to any sort of naval base or air base in the Pacific? And is the US or New Zealand helping with this?
Foreign Minister: Well, there's a lot of questions in that. First, in relation to the test, Pacific leaders have made clear consistently and more recently that they want the Pacific to be an ocean of peace. And we have raised our concerns about the missile test, which was done without the sort of notice, predictability and therefore assurance of intent that countries of the region expect. This goes to whether or not actions are destabilising or actions contribute to stability. So, we have made our view on that clear. In terms of security for the region, again, the Pacific Islands Forum at leader level have consistently, in what's called the Boe Declaration, the Biketawa Declaration and more recently the Ocean of Peace Declaration, have consistently put the view that they see the importance of security for the Pacific being provided for within the Pacific. So, within the Pacific Island Forum family. This is regionalism at a time where there is geopolitical contest. And regionalism is one of the ways you assure stability at a time of such competition.
Low: You have said that these missile tests, of course, is destabilising, but from China's point of view, they view AUKUS as well as US military presence, even the Quad, which they've called an Asian version of NATO, they view all of these as destabilising.
Foreign Minister: This is not an equivalent. So, I'll take you through those. Firstly, in terms of AUKUS, we are seeking to replace an existing submarine capability, an existing capability which is being retired. Compare that to the many, many nuclear-powered and nuclear-armed submarines China is constructing. So, I think, you know, let's have a sensible conversation about what the relative capability is and which is actually potentially destabilising.
Low: [interjects]
Foreign Minister: Well, hang on, let me finish. And in relation to AUKUS, what we have said is we will never seek nuclear [weapons] capability. And the purpose of this capability, which is to replace an existing capability, is we want to always work to assure peace. And this is about making sure there is both deterrence and reassurance. And Australia has always come to this position as a middle power, not as a great power, saying we want the sort of peace and stability in the region that we have seen since 1945. In terms of the Quad, every Quad member is a Comprehensive Strategic Partner of ASEAN. What the Quad does is work together, including to provide, provide benefits to both ASEAN partners and more broadly to Indo-Pacific partners, for example, on cable connectivity. I don't see that as destabilising.
Low: China often says it's a double standard, but different countries have different views.
Foreign Minister: What's the double standard?
Low: That one country's deterrence is another country's threat.
Foreign Minister: Well, all I can say is we've seen the largest military build-up since World War II in our region. And you're right, countries may say "we have a right to do that'. What other countries would want in the face of the fastest military build-up we have seen is assurances about intent, assurances around transparency. I think that's what the region wants.
Low: Alright, thank you so much, Minister Wong. I would love to continue but we are out of time. But certainly, we are seeing sort of arms race building up here in Asia. And it's certainly a very delicate balancing act where intent, as Minister Wong says, is paramount.