Melissa Clarke, Host: Foreign Minister Penny Wong joins AM. Senator Wong, thanks for speaking to me this morning.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good morning, good to be with you Mel.
Clarke: What's the latest advice from the Government for Australian travellers in the Middle East?
Foreign Minister: First, obviously, this is a perilous and unpredictable time in the Middle East, and we are very conscious of how challenging, how distressing this is for Australians who are in the Middle East and for friends and family overseas. What I would say is, we are engaging with the countries of the region, as you said in your introduction, particularly with the United Arab Emirates, because that is where we see most Australians. This is a consular crisis that dwarfs any that Australia has had to deal with in terms of numbers of people. The Foreign Minister of the Arab Emirates explained to me that around 24,000 Australians are in his country. We discussed when I spoke with him, and I know the Prime Minister also spoke with the Sheikh, that the best way to get people out is to get commercial flights started. I asked if they could look at commercial flights restarting. Obviously, it's very unpredictable and I understand there is a flight scheduled from Dubai to Sydney. Obviously, we would say to people on the ground, you need to ensure you stay in contact with your airline in relation to that flight if you are on it. Flights have been cancelled and changed at short notice.
Clarke: When do you expect that Dubai to Sydney flight to take off?
Foreign Minister: As I said, it was scheduled for morning Dubai time, but that obviously is dependent on the circumstances. I'm sorry, this morning, our time.
Clarke: This morning our time. Ok, so that could happen shortly, if, that is, if airspace remains safe that to proceed. Are there options for the Federal Government to assist people stuck in Dubai to travel by land to Riyadh or to Muscat and get flights from those locations?
Foreign Minister: Mel, we are looking at all contingencies and obviously, you know, geographically this is very difficult for Australia, given how far away we are and we are looking at what contingency arrangements might work. I'd make the point that there have been attacks on Saudi Arabia. It is one of 10 countries Iran has now attacked in the region. This is a much broader spread of conflict in the Middle East than we have seen. And obviously, given that the hubs are being attacked, this has made this crisis much more difficult for everyone to navigate and we're very conscious of how distressing this is. I simply say it is a difficult situation. We are working around the clock to do all we can.
Clarke: If the flight from Dubai to Sydney is able to successfully depart this morning and those airspace conditions remain safe, would the Government look to add additional chartered flights or would you be relying on commercial operators to be able to clear the backlog of Australian travellers?
Foreign Minister: Mel, we are looking at all contingencies that are possible, but I again say what I've said over the last two days. When you have as many Australians as we have in, particularly in the Emirates, but broadly in the region, so it's 115,000 Australians in the broader region, 24,000 in Emirates. We have a lot there, obviously, because it's been a hub for Australian travellers as well as Australian expats. That volume of traffic will really need to see commercial flights resume, even if only sporadically, to get people home.
Clarke: The UAE has been funding accommodation and food for Australian travellers. Is that something that's going to continue? What have you learned from your discussions with your counterpart?
Foreign Minister: I thank the Foreign Minister for the assistance that the United Arab Emirates is providing Australians. They are funding accommodation and meals. He said to me, we treat them as our own. And I express to him the thanks of Australia for the friendship of the UAE people. I think Australians will remember this in years to come, that how this country stepped up to provide this assistance and support to Australians in the region.
Clarke: There are some uncertain days and possibly quite more in the days ahead in this conflict. Whatever decisions the Australian Government has to make, will you be abiding by international law when making them, or does that depend on the circumstances?
Foreign Minister: Australia always seeks to both advocate for, promote and observe international law. And in relation to this conflict, we have been very clear that international humanitarian law should be observed by all parties.
Clarke: We've seen the opposition spokesperson for Defence, James Patterson say, you know, great nations have the power to do what they want to do and they are doing that. We have to adjust to that reality. Do you disagree with that?
Foreign Minister: What I've said is Iran represents a regime that has engaged in terrorism over many decades and including recently a country that has engaged in terrorism and has not complied with international resolutions, including of the Security Council in relation to its nuclear program. So, we have said we support action that prevents Iran from obtaining a nuclear capability and prevents Iran from continuing to act beyond its borders. Let's not forget Iran participated in organising an attack on Australian soil against Australians.
Clarke: Your US counterpart, Marco Rubio, has said that the imminent threat the US faced from Iran that justified its strikes was that Israel was going to attack Iran and the US would face backlash. Overnight, we've heard the US President, Donald Trump, say he thought Iran was going to attack Israel, so he wanted to pre-empt that attack, so they had to strike first. Are these reasonable justifications to the Australian Government?
Foreign Minister: What I would say is that the basis, the legal basis of these strikes is ultimately a matter for the United States and Iran, sorry and Israel, is ultimately a matter for the United States and Israel. We know Iran has failed to comply with UN Security Council resolutions on its nuclear program. We know what Iran has been doing over many years, I think it is important for us to remember this has not started with these strikes, this has been going on for decades, including in Australia.
Clarke: One last question on a different matter. France has proposed expanding its nuclear weapons deterrence to other European nations and expanding the number of nuclear warheads it has and not disclosing how many it will stockpile. Is this an indicator that NATO is no longer a reliable defender of Europe and that other countries like France have to act outside of that alliance with the US?
Foreign Minister: Australia supports NATO as one of the key pillars of peace and stability in the world, and we engage with NATO. Obviously, we are in a different geostrategic sphere, but we engage with NATO. I think it's in everyone's interest for NATO to be the stable pillar that it has been for so many decades.
Clarke: Do you have any concerns about France's plan given it does involve the expansion of holding of nuclear weapons? Australia has long been an international champion of nuclear non-proliferation. Are you comfortable with France expanding its stockpile of nuclear warheads?
Foreign Minister: Two points. First, we would continue to press for the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to be observed by all parties, including the nuclear parties. And second, of course we continue to advocate for arms control. We know the risk that these weapons pose to humanity.
Clarke: Senator Wong, thank you very much for joining me on AM this morning.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you.