Laura Jayes, Host: Joining me is the Foreign Affairs Minister, Penny Wong. Minister, thank you for your time. First of all, how many Australians are still in the Middle East requiring help to get home?
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: The large number about how many people are in the Middle East is about 115,000. Obviously, I think we have 13,000 upwards who have registered as seeking to and wanting to leave. I would make the point that most Australians who were caught in transit from the hubs in the Middle East have returned home. We've had about three and a half thousand Australians who have returned home on about 25 flights. So, that is good. But I would want to say something, if I may, Laura, to the Australians who are living in this region. I understand it's a big concern about making a decision to leave. Our advice is that you should, if you can secure a seat, you should leave. Please don't wait until it is too late.
Jayes: So, even if you're living there, in the Middle East, the Gulf states, whether it's Lebanon, the Gulf states, Israel, you should leave now if you can secure a seat, back to Australia?
Foreign Minister: If you can secure a seat, we believe people should be leaving. We don't want to see a situation where commercial flights, which are operating, but obviously on a limited schedule, where they dry up. We hope that will not happen, but don't leave it too late.
Jayes. So, what's the kind of time frame you're working to here? Because Donald Trump has said four to five weeks. Obviously you think this war is escalating and will get worse before it gets better. Donald Trump variously said today the war is not finished yet, then a couple of hours later said there's nothing left to target. Are you relying on what he says during the timeframe or what are you basing the length of this war on?
Foreign Minister: The Australian Government is not part of the offensive action against Iran, so obviously it's very difficult for us to give a clear indication about what the world is looking for, which is what is the timeline. Our observation, however, is given the scale and intensity of conflict, it's difficult to see how that resolves quickly. We have seen from Iran, as you know Laura, really an unprecedented response in terms of very early on – the first 24, 48 and 72 hours, hitting multiple countries, multiple civilian targets, including oil and hydrocarbon infrastructure, so maximising the impact on global markets. And they have not demonstrated a willingness to step back from that. They're hitting Gulf countries which they have not hit before, who have not participated or not been part of striking Iran. So, that does tell us something about their intent.
Jayes: So, you think the length of this war could be a lot longer and perhaps it's wishful thinking to think that this could be over quickly. Basically, the Australian Government, even though you're not involved directly in this war, are planning this for this to be prolonged?
Foreign Minister: We hope it will not be, because the impact on global economies and on civilian populations is so great. But we have to be realistic about how we look at the effect on the economy, on what is occurring in terms of global fuel. We have to be realistic and in a measured way consider what is the best way to ensure Australia remains resilient through this period of uncertainty.
Jayes: We're starting to get a bit more information about the initial days of the war. There's a preliminary report now that says the U.S. likely hit a girls' school in Iran by mistake. 175 people died, including more than 160 children. They had outdated information. Are you asking questions about that outdated information and the use of AI in this war?
Foreign Minister: First, that was tragic and the images and the reports of the number of children hit is tragic. And we extend our condolences to the family and friends of children who were lost. We have said from the beginning international humanitarian law must be observed. The Geneva Conventions still apply to all participants in this conflict. I understand the Pentagon is doing an investigation and that is appropriate.
Jayes: Okay. Is there a heightened terror risk here in Australia or for Australians travelling to places like the United States?
Foreign Minister:First, in relation to travel warnings, we are very careful about the travel advice we provide. I encourage all Australians who are considering travelling to read the advice on Smartraveller very carefully and also recognise it is being updated regularly. We are updating in relation to countries regularly. In relation to the terrorist level threat that remains as probable. That has not changed, but that is still probable.
Jayes: We saw that the Iranian regime was able to commit terror attacks here in Australia over the last year. Wouldn't they be more motivated to do that now?
Foreign Minister: I don't think it's responsible for me to get into too much commentary about it. The only point I'd make, Laura, and I have responded to this before, but I will say it again. The Iranian regime directed attacks on Australian soil against Australian targets without provocation, whilst we still had a diplomatic relationship. And they participated in those attacks in part to try and divide our society. So, I think that demonstrates the approach that they take.
Jayes: Okay, Penny Wong, if you could just hold there for a moment. Donald Trump is speaking right now. He's saying Iran has been decimated. We might get a little indication of what's happening. [BREAK] All right, that's Donald Trump. Penny Wong is still with us. He said there that a lot of countries support what we're doing, among other things. Penny Wong, your instant reaction to that. Are we one of those countries that fully supports this mission? And do you again believe that timeframe there, that most people are saying that this war is already won?
Foreign Minister: In terms of the objectives we support, we've sought to be very clear about the objectives we do support. We said from day one, and we've continued to be very clear, we support action to prevent Iran from being able to acquire a nuclear weapon and to prevent Iran from continuing to being a threat to international peace and security. And the reason we've done that is because we've been very focused on our first priority, which is the safety of Australians at home and abroad. That judgement has informed our decision around deployment, the deployment of the aircraft that the Prime Minister announced. That is a defensive capability which enables our Gulf country friends, many of whom have many Australians in place, to defend against missiles and drone attacks. It is a defensive capability to defend people. We have said, we are not going to take action to strike Iran. We're not going to be part of that. And we are not going to be deploying ground troops into Iran.
Jayes: And you don't see regime change?
Foreign Minister: Yes, look, I think that the challenge here, which I've been saying over these last days, is whatever you think of the Iranian regime, and they are an authoritarian regime who brutally cracks down on its own people, whatever we think about them, history shows us that you can't sustainably impose regime change from outside. And so ultimately the decision about who runs Iran and how they run it has to be in the hands of the Iranian people.
Jayes: Just one final question here. The Iranian people in Australia were so thankful of this action from the United States. We did see some Australian Muslim leaders glorify the death of the Ayatollah and set up mourning periods in their mosque. I think a lot of Australians were a little bit concerned about that. What is the point of banning some of these groups or terrorist sympathiser groups, when then leaders can apparently do this, mourn a murderous dictator with impunity?
Foreign Minister: I was disappointed that some people chose to mourn the death of a man who had been responsible for the deaths of so many. I was disappointed in terms of the broader issue of social cohesion and the Government's capacity, after the legislation that was passed, to crack down on groups which engage in hate or engage in discord. We have stronger powers now than we have ever had. Tony Burke has stronger powers than he has ever had.
Jayes: Minister, mourning his death or posting his image is not an offence, it doesn't seem like, should we make it one?
Foreign Minister: There are always judgements, aren't there, about what is the best way to promote social cohesion and what is the extent to which government should be prosecuting people. I would make the point that we actually had an even stronger set of hate law provisions before the Parliament after we returned after the horrific antisemitic attack at Bondi. It was the Coalition who wanted some of those watered down, despite the fact that they were calling for them and that organisations like the Zionist Federation of Australia were calling for them. In fact, the legislation that was passed, Laura, Angus Taylor didn't even bother to turn up. He was still in Europe on holidays. So we are a government that is very clear about the importance of trying to use all the arms of power available to us, including what are criminal, what are national security issues, but also how we speak to each other and about each other.
Jayes: Penny Wong, thank you so much for your time today. You've been very generous and we've certainly pushed you, so I appreciate it.
Foreign Minister: No, no worries. That's all good. Thanks very much, Laura. Good to speak with you.