Kieran Gilbert, Host: Foreign Minister Penny Wong, thanks for your time. Good to be with you. We've had a series of visits by world leaders: Carney, von der Leyen, now Takaichi. What should we read into this, the fact that we're getting so much attention?
Penny Wong, Minister for Foreign Afairs: I think you should read into it that the Government is active in promoting a range of relationships for the purposes of assuring Australia's national interests. We've been really clear that amplified middle power diplomacy, as I call it, which is making sure we build relationships with a range of powers in addition to our alliance with the United States, in addition to the work in our region, is how we most assure Australia's national interests in a time where we see a lot of instability and challenge.
Gilbert: You say in addition to the United States, but is it in a way, to fill the void left by the United States in some respects?
Foreign Minister: The United States remains our principal strategic partner. What we have to do, however, is also build relationships with other countries. And what you've seen is us focusing on the region. So I talk about region, relationships, rules and resilience. Well, we'll focus on the region. And you've seen that. You saw the Treaty of Common Security with Indonesia, as well as our work with other ASEAN countries. And then beyond that, other relationships, and I think the European Union, Canada, are part of that. Japan is our special strategic partner, so they have a very important place in Australia's relationships in the world. We work very closely with them and we welcome Prime Minister Takaichi here. It's the 50-year anniversary of the first Basic Treaty that was struck between Australia and Japan.
Gilbert: It is indeed. It's an interesting time though, isn't it? Because Takaichi, and as you say, she's in Canberra today for this important visit, but she's a more hawkish Japanese leader. She is a protege of Shinzo Abe. And I wonder, last week she ordered a ship through the Taiwan Strait. It's a more assertive move. Because you've spoken a lot about regional strategic equilibrium, does she help that or hinder it?
Foreign Minister: Japan is an important part of the strategic balance in the region. That is the reality. And I would also say that we support all nations, including Australia, being able to exercise freedom of navigation and freedom of overflight.
Gilbert: So in terms of her approach, though, do we need to sit back a little bit and think because yes, we're a strategic partner, but before we dive in any closer on a defence relationship, do you have to think more cautiously about that, given the likes of a hawkish leader like her?
Foreign Minister: It's in Australia's national interest to have a strong relationship with Japan and to work with Japan closely in the region. And that's what this visit is about. In every relationship, we look to what are Australia's national interests and how do we best progress them?
Gilbert: With Japan, you would have noticed there's been, and it's not new, but there are renewed protests about their defence spend, the move away from a pacifist post-World War II constitution. Do you welcome their greater defence spend? Do you welcome the fact that they're, you know, for want of a better phrase, muscling up more?
Foreign Minister: I think a stronger Japan in the world is a good thing for strategic balance. And we've seen Japan do more economically, do more diplomatically, do more in terms of defence procurement with Australia. And I think having Japan engaged in the region is a good thing for stability in the region.
Gilbert: ASPI have suggested that if AUKUS hits a snag, maybe we could look to the Japanese, to rent or, quickly acquire submarines?
Foreign Minister: Yes, look, I've seen some of those comments and I'd just say we're focused on AUKUS. That's the capability of Australia now.
Gilbert: And not a plan B?
Foreign Minister: We are focused on delivering AUKUS. It's challenging. It's a big task. It is meeting all these milestones and we're focused on ensuring we obtain that capability for Australia.
Gilbert: On China, you were there last week. They've agreed to work with our companies on jet fuel supplies. How would you characterise that relationship now, a few years on of the Albanese Government? Has the rapprochement helped you get this deal?
Foreign Minister: We've certainly had a lot more dialogue. This, I think, was my 11th meeting with the Foreign Minister Wany Yi since we were first elected and that is a good thing. You need to have dialogue and you've seen the engagement at senior levels of the Government with Beijing. That's important. Our relationship remains, as I have said many times, to cooperate where we can, disagree where we must, and engage in the national interest. This was very much a 'cooperate where we can' discussion because, as I said to Foreign Minister Wang Yi, you give us jet fuel, you give us diesel, it comes back to you as all of these things: iron ore, coal, and other commodities, LNG, that are necessary for the Chinese economy, and food. And that really has been my message throughout the visits we've engaged in, whether in Southeast Asia or last week's visits to Japan, Korea and China, where we spoke about the importance of working together to manage these disruptions to the energy market because we need each other to stay reliable at these times.
Gilbert: In the last little while, last few hours, President Trump said the US will start escorting ships through the Strait of Hormuz. Is that a good development?
Foreign Minister: We want the Strait opened. The best way for that to happen is to allow them to come to a negotiated outcome with the United States that allows the Strait to be opened. That's what we want. We've been engaged with the United States as well as the United Kingdom, France and others about arrangements for the Strait. It's in all of our interest for the Strait of Hormuz to open.
Gilbert: Another ship attacked over the weekend. That's two dozen ships now since the start of the war. Are we in a situation counter-intuitively where Iran is in a better place to be able to last longer amid this uncertainty and conflict than the US can?
Foreign Minister: But there is a lot of pressure on Iran, obviously, and they are using the Strait of Hormuz as leverage. Now, ultimately, the world needs the Strait open. It's 80% of the oil to our region, 20% of the oil to global markets. So we'll certainly keep working with other countries on this, supporting that outcome.
Gilbert: On the ISIS brides, the Syrians say that we've blocked their return. What's happening on that front? Is there any assistance whatsoever? If they're Australians should they have passports?
Foreign Minister: Australians are entitled to passports as under Australian law. We are not repatriating this group of citizens and we've made that clear.
Gilbert: So, but are we blocking them as well?
Foreign Minister: The only circumstances in which you can exclude an Australian from returning to Australia are the circumstances that Tony Burke has spoken about where there's an exclusion order. I think he's put in place an order for one person.
Gilbert: For one, has it not been extended?
Foreign Minister: Minister Burke has to act in accordance with advice and law. What I would say is if they do return, they will face the full force of the law.
Gilbert: So it sounds like that might have been extended to a few of the others?
Foreign Minister: I think that the exclusion order is as Minister Burke has announced. I'm simply making the point that they will face the law if they return to Australia.
Gilbert: Finally, on another matter, you're quite close to the Prime Minister. He said that he's going to stay and run for another election. Did he consider going early?
Foreign Minister: Look, I think it's a great thing that Albo wants to run for a third term. I think he's doing an outstanding job and I think this long-term leadership, stable, experienced leadership is what the country needs.
Gilbert: Is he attuned to the risk from the right flank? You know, because One Nation's taking votes from the Coalition. We saw in your hometown, Elizabeth, the old Holden manufacturing area, they got, I think it was over 20% of the primary vote in the recent state election. That's got to be a bit of a worry to Labor.
Foreign Minister: Look, Albo wants to continue to serve the country and that's a good thing for the country. In terms of One Nation, we know the risk that One Nation poses and the risk is that they are about division, not about solutions. They are about making people angry, not actually resolving anything, any of the major challenges the country faces. So, very good at criticising, but actually they don't have any answers.
Gilbert: Foreign Minister Penny Wong, thanks for your time.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you.