Kieran Gilbert, Host: Foreign Minister, thanks for your time.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be with you.
Gilbert: It's been a big 24 hours. I want to start with the announcement in relation to the Palestinian Authority, the commitments they've made, is the Palestinian Authority, the corrupt Palestinian Authority, is that the right partner for peace and for a two-state solution?
Foreign Minister: We've been working with others in the international community to make a judgement about what is the best time, what is it for us to make this contribution, when is the best opportunity for Australia to contribute to this momentum. And many factors have gone into that. One of them is the commitments that the Palestinian Authority have made. And they are historic commitments. They include no role for Hamas in the governance of Gaza. But also we have commitments that have been expressed internationally and will be discussed again in New York from the Arab countries. So, the Arab League also has made historic commitments and historic statements about the condemnation of October 7 and the horrors of that. But importantly that Hamas should have no role in Gaza. So, what that means is we have an opportunity to work with the Palestinian and Arab authorities and groups and leaders who are saying we want to isolate Hamas too. And that is important long term. Ultimately, though, this decision is about peace. There is no lasting peace in the Middle East unless there are two states. I think we know that.
Gilbert: But the people, the Palestinian people, don't like the Authority. Poll after poll says they think they're corrupt. That's how they ended up with Hamas in the first place. Is the PA the right body to work with?
Foreign Minister: There's a lot of reform of the Palestinian Authority which is required. We are clear-eyed about that. So, is the United Kingdom, so is Canada, so are all the European countries who have also recognised governance reforms and ultimately further elections. But what I'd say to you is, of course, success is not guaranteed, but success never comes from just doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different outcome. And that's the judgement countries of the world, including Australia, are making.
Gilbert: That election story, though, that's the key piece to that puzzle, isn't it? Because they were knocking off even their own opponents politically. Basically, the point I'm trying to make is it's not a great group of people that we're tying our wagon to.
Foreign Minister: Well, there are many different figures inside both the Palestinian Authority. There are also many leaders in the Arab League. And I think it is unprecedented for these commitments to be made which go to security for Israel, demilitarisation and crucially, support for Hamas' grip on Gaza to be ended.
Gilbert: The Prime Minister this morning spoke of the more extreme end of the Netanyahu Government. Yesterday, he mentioned in his news conference with you, he spoke about the rapid expansion of illegal settlements. We know there are ultra nationalist elements within that cabinet, is that what you meant when you said there might not be a Palestine to recognise?
Foreign Minister: I think we can all look at what is happening now and the policies of the Netanyahu Government and we can see that the prospects of two states is being diminished by the actions which are being taken. This is why Australia joined with other countries in sanctioning ministers who were two of the key drivers behind the settlement enterprise. It's why we, with other countries sanctioned settler individuals and organisations who are behind the settler violent enterprise. It is about human rights abuses of Palestinian peoples. But, the broader question is what does this mean on the ground? This is the dilemma, isn't it? 77 years ago, the world made a decision to recognise Israel and Australia was the first country to put our hand up for that. And that was the right thing to do. But there was another part of that promise which was a state for the Palestinian people. And there will be no peace in the Middle East, there will be no stability until that question is dealt with.
Gilbert: With that question, though, do you need to go further than just recognition?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Of course.
GILBERT: I know we've just got to this point after 77 years, but you've got colleagues like Ed Husic already saying you need to look at sanctions as well, beyond just those on Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, the two ministers.
Foreign Minister: Well, our focus will be on what we can do to contribute in a way that has meaning and that has always been our focus. That's why when we sanction, we sanction with others because that is how they have impact. But you said more work, of course there's more work. There is so much more work. There is work to do with the Palestinian Authority. There's work to do to ensure that we hold the international community, hold the Palestinian Authority to their commitments. You asked me earlier about the PA as a partner, we will hold the Palestinian Authority to their commitments with the international community. That's our intention.
Gilbert: I want to read to you what Sussan Ley and Michaelia Cash said, "Despite his words today, the reality is Anthony Albanese has committed Australia to recognising Palestine. While hostages remain in tunnels under Gaza and with Hamas still in control of the population of Gaza, nothing he has said today changes that fact." That's true, isn't it?
Foreign Minister: The hostages should be released, and the hostages must be released. We don't want Hamas in control of Gaza. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. We consistently condemn them. But the question here is, well, what do we do? There are two alternatives here, Kieran. We can continue to have more of the same. More death, more destruction, more civilians starving, more military action, more people killed, more pictures of children. Or we can say we have to try and find another way. And I'm not pretending the road is an easy road, but it is the alternative that the international community is compelled to walk down.
Gilbert: The other path, though, is the one led by the US, and this is a point made by Michaelia Cash and Sussan Ley as well, is that the key player in trying to solve this is the US and Marco Rubio, your counterpart, who you spoke to, I think yesterday, he says premature recognition is going to derail the ceasefire talks.
Foreign Minister: I don't think anyone looking at the decision of the Israeli cabinet to engage in a large-scale invasion of Gaza and Gaza City in particular, would say that the key problem for a ceasefire at the moment is recognition by Australia. Like, I just don't think that logic bears out. What I would say is the US has a unique role. We support the work that President Trump and his envoy, Mr Witkoff, are doing to broker a ceasefire. We support them in their call for hostages to be released with dignity. Of course we do. But at the moment what we see is an escalation, an escalation of the conflict. So, the choice the international community have is do we do more of the same or do we try and find a pathway to peace? And the work that is being done, it's not us alone with so many countries in the lead up to September, is to try and find a different way out of this.
Gilbert: Macron, the French leader, when he announced it, the Prime Minister then said he didn't want any move by Australia to be a gesture. That was just two weeks ago. What's changed? Why is this not just a gesture?
Foreign Minister: Well, first, it's not just the last two weeks, is it, Kieran? I talked about this over a year ago. I said that we saw recognition as being part of a peace process, not just at the end of a peace process. I've been saying for more than a year, it's a matter of when, not if. I have been saying we want to look at when we can have the best impact. That is precisely what the Prime Minister has been saying for a very long time now, including than two weeks ago. And since then we've engaged in diplomatic coordination with other countries. You see that. It's a very coordinated approach, we're part of it.
Gilbert: Is there part of you that looks at this - and I know it's an historic moment, but is there a part of you that says it's quite a sad moment as well? Given we were one of the First Nations to recognise Israel? It's the only democracy in the Middle East and now this is a real split with a country that - I think it's fair to say we've been allied with for many, many years.
Foreign Minister: I'm deeply saddened by what we have seen. I'm deeply saddened and horrified by what we saw on October 7th, we all are. The largest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust in a single day. I'm deeply saddened by the loss of civilian life since. I'm deeply saddened by the escalation of the conflict. We all are. So, the decision the government has to make is what we do in these circumstances when there is no perfect outcome. We've chosen to recognise Palestine. We've chosen to work with other countries to build that pathway to two states. And we've done it because our intention, what we're motivated by is peace and security for both Israelis and Palestinians.
Gilbert: The journalist Anas Al Sharif, among five Al Jazeera employees that were killed, do you believe Israel's argument that he was a terrorist, not a journalist?
Foreign Minister: Journalists should be protected. So, journalists should be protected, just as humanitarian workers should be protected, just as civilians are entitled to the protection under international humanitarian law.
Gilbert: You don't buy their argument that he's headed a terrorist cell?
Foreign Minister: I can't speak for the Israelis. I speak for Australia. We want journalists to be protected.
Gilbert: 600 Israeli security former members, leaders of Mossad, of Shin Bet, former Prime Minister Barak signed a letter to Trump. Did you speak to any Israelis urging you to take this path?
Foreign Minister: I did consider that letter. I thought it was really a very powerful letter and that informed my decision to be, amongst other things, to be part of the statement by many Foreign Ministers rejecting the decision to engage in a large-scale operation in Gaza. Obviously, this is a controversial issue inside Israel as well. We've seen different views amongst hostage families, different views amongst the community about the conduct of the war. Ultimately, though, this isn't about politics. What this ultimately has to be about is peace.
Gilbert: Have you had some reach out to you as well, urging you to go down this path?
Foreign Minister: We get a lot of incoming from lots of people with different views, Kieran. Ultimately, we have to make a judgement about what we think is in Australia's national interest. We have an interest in being a constructive player in this, even if we're not the key player.
Gilbert: The former PM Ehud Barak says Netanyahu continues this conflict for his own political preservation. Do you agree with him?
Foreign Minister: Well, I'm not going to comment on domestic comments. What I would say is we don't agree with many of the actions of Prime Minister Netanyahu and his government.
Gilbert: The reconstruction is going to be enormous. Obviously, Australia, you flagged it, that we will play a part in it. How soon would that be able to be delivered, or at least start to be delivered?
Foreign Minister: Well, first we need to see the conflict resolved and we need to see progress on the commitments the Palestinian Authority have made and the Arab League have made. I'm hoping September will be an opportunity for world leaders to come together to map out how this will occur. And I think everyone is very aware how much work is required.
Gilbert: A couple of other issues, big ones, before you go. And I know you do have to get a plane, but the Russia - Putin-Trump summit, it's being held in the United States, in Alaska. What do you make of this? The fact that Ukraine is sidelined, does that - are you discouraged by that? Or is the whole Trump diplomacy thing something where they lift the chessboard and it's hard to predict anyway?
Foreign Minister: And requires engagement bilaterally as well as between the parties. Look, I think it is a good thing that there is a meeting. I hope President Trump is able to shift President Putin's thinking so that there can be negotiation with the Ukrainians and a resolution on Ukrainian terms. I hope that that is the case and the US is uniquely placed to be able to do that. We all want this war to end.
Gilbert: He's unpredictable too, isn't he? Whether it be on the Middle East or Russia.
Foreign Minister: He also has had success in brokering at least ceasefires or cessation of hostilities. So, I hope, we all hope the war can end and the US has a crucial role to play. So, dialogue matters.
Gilbert: You're heading to Vanuatu today, obviously for work reasons, but it's quite a high-level delegation.
Foreign Minister: Very clear, not a holiday.
Gilbert: No, not a holiday. It sounds nice this time of year out of Canberra, but you're heading with a very senior delegation. I was surprised for a bilateral visit without getting too pointy-headed. This is quite a high level. You and the Deputy Prime Minister to quite a tiny nation. Why so much focus?
Foreign Minister: And the Minister for the Pacific as well, Pat Conroy. So, three Cabinet Ministers, including two members of the leadership group of the government. And it reflects the priority the Pacific has. Pacific is central to Australia. It's essential to our stability, to our security. We're a Pacific partner that needs to be and wants to be more engaged. This reflects the priority that we have for the Pacific and the respect that we do have for Vanuatu and other members of the Pacific family.
Gilbert: And you spoke to your US counterpart about the region yesterday. Is there a recognition, do you think, in this administration? I know the Prime Minister hasn't met with President Trump yet, but really the main game for us and for the United States is all about the Indo-Pacific, not to be distracted by other issues.
Foreign Minister: One of the things about Secretary Rubio, he's very consistent. And if you look at what he said over the years, what he said in his confirmation hearings before the Senate committee, it is the same as what he discusses with me bilaterally and in the Quad, which is a recognition of precisely that point. I have said the future - the world is being reshaped. The focus of the reshaping is in our region. He talks about the future of the 21st century being determined in our region. So, the priority of the Indo-Pacific and its centrality to the world's stability is something very front of mind for him.
Gilbert: Foreign Minister, thanks for your time. Appreciate it.
Foreign Minister: Great to be with you.