Karl Stefanovic, Host: Australia and Indonesia have unveiled a new security treaty. But what does it all mean? I'm joined now by Foreign Affairs Minister Penny Wong in Sydney. Hey, Penny, nice to see you this morning. Look, as you know, I have a fairly rudimentary understanding of diplomacy of any kind. You don't need to answer that. But to me there were bells and brass and high-level back slapping, but no obligation from either side to do anything at all.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: I think you're selling yourself a bit short there, Karl. I think you're pretty diplomatic. But look, this is a really historic day. It's an agreement with our closest neighbour, our largest neighbour, and it's all about, you know, strengthening Australia's security. We know that having strong relationships with our neighbours, with our region, is really critical in this time. That's what this is about.
Stefanovic: Let's have a look at the weeds, though. What type of security threat would trigger any kind of action?
Foreign Minister: Look, I don't think Australians need anyone to tell them that we live in some pretty challenging times. What we need to do is to work out how we respond to that. And one of the central ways in which the Albanese Government is keeping Australians more secure is to make sure we have strong relationships with our neighbours. That's what this Common Security Treaty is about. It's saying we're going to cooperate together, we're going to work together to keep our region secure.
Stefanovic: But again, like Chinese warships doing some circle work in our waters, would that trigger it?
Foreign Minister: Look, I'm not going to go, as you would expect, I'm not going to go through, you know, what might happen here or there in terms of hypotheticals or specifics. But what I would say to you is fundamentally we've got to have good relations with our neighbours. That helps keep Australia secure. It helps keep Australians secure at a time where we know there are a lot more challenges in our world.
Stefanovic: But I think Australians have a right to know what that action would look like and what would trigger it.
Foreign Minister: I think what I'd say to Australians is this is about Australia and Indonesia, our largest neighbour, and I think if you look at the geography, people understand why it matters to Australia. We want the best relationship we can. It's a commitment that we will consult on our common security at the highest levels of government. That's what it means.
Stefanovic: But no obligation to do anything?
Foreign Minister: We would act together where we think it's appropriate and that makes sense. Of course, both countries have to make their own sovereign choices, but it does give us a very special relationship with each other. It's the sort of agreement we have with very few countries and it is all about more security in our region.
Stefanovic: Did you get any clarity, Penny, on these reports about this Russian airbase in Papua? I know you've answered that in previous months, but did you get any clarity on whether that was being advanced at all?
Foreign Minister: We know that Indonesia has had a long-standing relationship with Russia. How we best respond to that is by doing what we're doing, which is to strengthen our relationship with Indonesia, to make sure our partnership enables us to be even closer and to have the conversations about difficult or sensitive matters.
Stefanovic: So Russia may be doing it, or not?
Foreign Minister: Well, Russia has a long-standing relationship with Indonesia and with other countries in our region.
Stefanovic: You'd be alright with an airbase being put in Papua?
Foreign Minister: You wouldn't expect me to respond to hypotheticals, but these sorts of discussions, this agreement that I've described, is all about making sure we work together to maintain stability and security in our region.
Stefanovic: Did you raise the Russian airbase with them?
Foreign Minister: You would. I've spoken about this before, Karl, and you know that we've made our views clear. And Indonesia, as you might recall during the election campaign also made their position very clear.
Stefanovic: Okay. The ASIO boss seems more concerned about cyber threats from China right now. How do you respond to what he's had to say?
Foreign Minister: We have been very clear about the importance of cyber security, and we have been very forward leaning in joining with others to identify circumstances where state actors or non-state actors have engaged in cyber incursions. We've seen the Australian government join others to attribute cybersecurity incidents to state actors and non-state actors. We'll continue to do that. We need to try and set what we call norms, like standards, for countries around the world and for state, non-state actors as well.
Stefanovic: It's China though.
Foreign Minister: We've been part of attributing to state actors, including China, but also to others.
Stefanovic: How would you assess the threat from the Coalition right now?
Foreign Minister: I think you see more chaos inside the Coalition. They've had, how long has this meeting been going? Is this two or three days? I've been sort of focused on Indonesia, and it doesn't seem like they still have an outcome yet. What is it? More drama than MAFS? Almost as many breakups, I think.
Stefanovic: Look, I know you're a busy Senator, but I wondered if you would play a game with me this morning.
Foreign Minister: Oh, God. This is not good, this is not going to go well.
Stefanovic: It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine.
Foreign Minister: I have a feeling about this. It's not going to go well. Penny Wong and Karl playing a game on national television. I don't think it's going to go well.
Stefanovic: It's going to be all right. Look, here's Liberal MP Angie Bell and Nationals MP Sam Birrell in a band at Parliament singing and can you, Penny Wong, guess the song?
[musical interlude]
Stefanovic: All right, Penny Wong for a pick of the Coalition leadership board, Penny from Coromandel Valley Primary School, what is that song? Sung by a National and a Liberal at Parliament House.
Foreign Minister: INXS
Stefanovic: Never Tear Us Apart.
Foreign Minister: Never Tear Us Apart, that's it. It wasn't the best rendition, was it, really? I don't think that's true though.
Stefanovic: They can't get much right now. Good on you, Penny. Lovely to see you.
Foreign Minister: And you, cheers.
Stefanovic: Bet you won't get that kind of interview anywhere else
Foreign Minister: No that's right.