Jules Schiller, Host: Well yesterday Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has announced that Australia will recognise a Palestinian state at the United Nations General Assembly next month, the decision that reverberated around the country and around the world. We're joined now by the Foreign Minister, Penny Wong. Good morning to you, Penny Wong.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good morning, good to be with you.
Schiller: Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister was unequivocal. There was no move afoot for the Australian Government to recognise a Palestinian state, so what changed?
Foreign Minister: This is something we and our international partners have been working on for over a year. I think we all know that we need a two-state solution for there to be lasting peace and security for both Israelis and Palestinians. For over a year, I've been saying it's a matter of when, not if, in terms of Australia's recognition of a Palestinian state. But what we have been looking for is Australia's best opportunity to contribute to international momentum for this. And the decision we've made is as a result of this being the best opportunity. We have major new commitments from the Arab League countries and the Palestinian Authority. We have an opportunity to isolate Hamas, we have momentum with others and this is all about working with other countries to try and build momentum towards peace.
Sonya Feldhoff, Host: Other than being a part of the momentum, what impact does Australia recognising Palestine have, particularly to the people of Gaza? Will it change, in a positive way, what's happening there to them?
Foreign Minister: We all want a ceasefire, the hostages to be released, the war to end, aid to flow. We all want that. And that's what we have been calling for, for many, many months now, for over a year. But what France, the United Kingdom, Canada, now Australia and so many others, including our European colleagues, are saying is we have to find a way to break the cycle of violence. So, not only this war now, but longer term, find a way to break the cycle of violence, which really has been something the Middle East has known for decades and two states and a pathway to two states is necessary to break that cycle.
Schiller: You've said that this move will isolate Hamas. There's many headlines around the country today, including one in the Adelaide Advertiser, which is running the other narrative that it's rewarding Hamas, or emboldening Hamas. What do you say to that argument?
Foreign Minister: I appreciate the opportunity to respond to that because I think it's very important, we are not recognising Hamas. Hamas opposes two states. What we are moving to do is to support those moderate Palestinian and Arab voices working with those who support ending Hamas' grip on Gaza. That is what we are doing.
Feldhoff: And so if Hamas has that grip on Gaza and you are talking and working with the Palestinian Authority, how do we see what you are saying must happen, for this recognition to happen?
Foreign Minister: As I said, yesterday in the press conference, this is in many ways the beginning. There's a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of work to be done in September at the United Nations when Saudi Arabia and France will host or chair the conference where the states of the world will discuss this. And everyone recognises that it is extremely difficult to build a pathway to peace when you see where the war in Gaza is. But I think people are very clear that, what is the alternative? I mean, we can't keep doing the same thing and hoping for a different outcome, and if we wait for success to be guaranteed, it really does mean waiting for a day that cannot come. So, we have to be part of this. It is, I think, a very important decision that is about Australia joining with the international community to try and build a pathway to peace.
Schiller: Speaking of the international community, you spoke to your colleague in the USA, Marco Rubio, informing him of your decision. Obviously, the USA have not joined this bloc of countries. What did you say to him and what was his response?
Foreign Minister: I don't tend to go into the detail of those sorts of conversations. I can say generally, obviously, we have a different position to that of the United States, they have a different role – and we certainly support President Trump's and his envoy's efforts to broker a ceasefire in Gaza, to have the hostages released and to have aid to flow. We also spoke about many issues. We spoke about the shared project of, in our region, how do we make sure there is peace, stability and security.
Schiller: So, just without going into details, it didn't damage our relationship with the USA in any way, you think yesterday's announcement?
Foreign Minister: We have a different view, I think we all understand that but our relationship and our alliance goes to many issues, particularly in our region, not only the Middle East.
Feldhoff: Sonia and Jules with you for breakfast here on 891 ABC Adelaide, you're listening to Foreign Minister Penny Wong. Minister, where does the fate of the Israeli hostages sit within this decision?
Foreign Minister: Well, the hostages should be released and we have been supportive of a ceasefire to enable the hostages to be released, along with many other countries. But I would make this point, the Israeli Government has made a decision over the weekend to launch an additional large-scale military operation in Gaza. I've joined with many other Foreign Ministers to reject that decision and we've said it will aggravate a catastrophic humanitarian situation. It will endanger the lives of hostages and it will risk the mass displacement of civilians. In relation to hostages, I will never forget my meeting with hostage families when I was in Israel. And I can only imagine in the months, and weeks and months since, what this horrific experience has been like for them. We continue to call for hostages to be released. I note that there are different views amongst hostage families about the best way to respond, including, as you will have seen, in terms of the political discussion in Israel.
Schiller: You mentioned the Israeli Government, they've talked about, like you say, an invasion of Gaza City. Would you consider putting sanctions on Israel if they went through with that?
Foreign Minister: I'll make a couple of points. Firstly, we don't speculate on sanctions. And when we engage in sanctions, particularly because we’re not a large market, they have most effect if they are coordinated with other countries. So, if you look at the sanctions that we have placed on members of the Israeli Government, settler sanctions, sanctions of individuals and entities, we've done that in concert with other parties.
Feldhoff: Minister, you've been working with the Palestinian Authority or having discussions with them around this, if Israel goes ahead with an occupation of Gaza, as it seems to indicate that it will, will Australia's commitment involve supporting the Palestinian Authority in fighting or living through that?
Foreign Minister: Of course not. This is not about supporting more conflict. This is about finding a way out of conflict.
Schiller: And the UK and Canada have attached conditions to their recognition of the Palestinian state, are we doing the same?
Foreign Minister: We've taken the position, actually very similar to the Canadian position, where we have said we will recognise Palestine at the United Nations in September along with those other countries. We have said that our recognition is predicated on, that is based upon, the commitments that are being given by the Palestinian Authority, which include not only the demilitarisation and the rejection of Hamas, but a range of governance reforms. And that reminds us, this is why this is the best opportunity we have to contribute to breaking what has been a historic and generational cycle of violence, and to try and help build lasting peace and security.
Schiller: And finally, Penny Wong, we know you have to go, I mean, Benjamin Netanyahu gave a press conference yesterday saying countries like Australia have gone down a rabbit hole. Is this going to irreparably damage our relationship with Israel? Are you confident that it can be repaired?
Foreign Minister: Well, we do have differences of views. We don't agree with Prime Minister Netanyahu's conduct of the war in Gaza. We are deeply concerned about the extent of civilian casualties. We are deeply concerned about the deprivation that we see. We oppose the withholding of aid. And we've said that forcible permanent displacement would be a breach of international law. And we are not alone. I mean, this is the view of countries who have been long-standing friends of Israel. I have made many of the statements that I have made with countries like the United Kingdom and Canada and New Zealand. These are all countries who've had long standing friendships with the State of Israel. We support Israel's right to exist as a state. I've made that very clear. But we do not support many of the actions that Prime Minister Netanyahu and his government is taking. We are very distressed, along with many members of the Australian community, with the loss of life we are seeing.
Feldhoff: Foreign Minister Penny Wong, thank you for your time.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you. Thank you.