James Glenday, Host: With flights grounded in much of the Middle East, hundreds of passengers are stranded, including many Australians. Penny Wong, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, joins us now from Canberra. Minister, welcome to the program.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good morning. Good to be with you, James.
Glenday: No, thank you for your time on what is a very busy day. Just first of all, do you know how many Australians are stranded and have contacted you asking for help to get out?
Foreign Minister: We have about 11,000 Australians coming in and out of Australia on Etihad, Emirates and Qatar. So, that gives you some indication of the scale of the travel. On estimates, we have about 115,000 Australians in the region. So, there are a lot of Australians in the region. Our first priority, my first priority is to do everything we can to keep Australians safe. Obviously, it's very difficult at the moment for government to provide a great deal of assistance in circumstances where flights are being cancelled, disrupted and airspace is closed. What I have done this morning, in addition to Iran and Israel, I have directed my department to open the Foreign Affairs and Trade's portal, which is where people can register and get timely updates for the UAE and for Qatar.
Glenday: Travel insurance doesn't cover acts of war. Now, I know it is still early days. We've heard from a lot of travelers saying, `goodness, we don't know what we're going to do now.' Are you considering repatriation flights at some point this week?
Foreign Minister: First, we need to see if commercial flights will restart. Given the numbers of people in the region, people will get home most quickly if we can facilitate people getting onto commercial flights. At the moment, the issue is not who is flying, it's that people are not flying. So, at the moment, we know that this is a very volatile situation. I can understand the distress and fear and worry that many Australians are feeling, those who are in the region, but also families. We will continue to provide as up-to-date and timely information as we can. And I would urge people who are needing assistance to register with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.
Glenday: The United States is, of course, a close ally. Have you spoken with the US Secretary of State or anyone from America about what the plan is here and how long they expect this to go on for?
Foreign Minister: We have had discussions or engagement as is usual at officials' level. As I said yesterday, I haven't spoken to Secretary Rubio and I wouldn't expect to. We are not central to these issues in the Middle East. We understand the reasons for the actions that have been taken and we support action to ensure Iran does not ever obtain a nuclear weapon.
Glenday: Have they said this will be days, this will be weeks, this is an ongoing war? Have you been given any indication at all about what the end game is?
Foreign Minister: I think the best thing is to look at what President Trump has said. And President Trump has made clear that he is determined to ensure that the risk of nuclear threat, the nuclear program cannot continue. And I note overnight that he has said that the new Iranian leadership have reached out. We hope that that results in a productive discussion.
Glenday: Do you think that regime change is likely here though? I mean, that's also been a stated aim of the US President.
Foreign Minister: I've said yesterday and consistently that the future of the Iranian State, the future of Iran is in the hands of the Iranian people. And what we do know from history, James, is that regime change is not something that can sustainably be externally imposed. What we know is that ultimately it is the people of a country that have to determine and should determine their destinies.
Glenday: And I want to be clear, very few people are going to be mourning the Supreme Leader. But you've also been on our show a lot speaking about the importance of the international rules-based order. Was this action illegal under international law?
Foreign Minister: First in relation to Ayatollah Khamenei, as you said, no one will mourn his passing. This is the leader who has been responsible for brutally murdering his own people. A leader who has been responsible for the sponsoring of terrorist proxies in the region, including Hamas and Hezbollah, and a country that has, contrary to international law, continued with and its nuclear program and refused to enable the international nuclear body, the International Atomic Energy Agency, to do inspections.
Glenday: That's a fair point. Just to the question about legality though, because I think a lot of people will be looking back through statements made by you and the Prime Minister and others from the time of the Iraq war and thinking what's the legal justification under international law for this action by America and Israel?
Foreign Minister: First, one of the distinctions with Iraq, between Iraq and now, is that we are not participating in these strikes. That's the first point I'd make. The second is, what I've said is that the legal basis of this is for the United States and Israel to explain.
Glenday: But if it is illegal and you're not sort of taking a position, why wouldn't Australia just come out and say it, that the rules-based order is not being respected.
Foreign Minister: We're obviously not party to the intelligence that both that the United States and the Israelis are referencing in their decisions. That is why it is for them to explain the legal basis of this. We do support action taken to ensure Iran does not have a nuclear weapon.
Glenday: Just before I let you go, is there a risk that this sort of US action, Israeli action, sends a message to other superpowers around the world that might is right and that the powerful can do as they want.
Foreign Minister: Australia doesn't walk away from its position that international law and particularly international humanitarian law must be observed. And Australia will continue to do what we have been doing in government, recognising that we live in very challenging times, very difficult times. There's conflict in the Middle East again and we know what has happened in Ukraine and so forth. We will work with other powers, we will work through international bodies and we will work in our region.
Glenday: Are you going to go to the Trump Administration and say, hey, we're just keen to know what your legal basis for doing this was?
Foreign Minister: Hey, is probably not how I would engage in the discussion, to be honest with you, James, as I've already answered that question.
Glenday: That's fair. Well, all right. Foreign Minister Penny Wong, we do appreciate you joining us this morning. I know you've got a busy day.
Foreign Minister: Thanks very much. Good to be with you.