Esther Pavihi, Host: Welcome back to Niue, and welcome to the BCN Studios.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Well, it's wonderful to be back in Niue and it is particularly wonderful to be back in the studios after the visit last time. Haven't you done a wonderful job, all of you?
Esther Pavihi: Thanks to you and your government, of course. This is funded by the Australian Government. And we're so pleased, in fact, for you to be the first guest that we interview right here in the studio.
Foreign Minister: Look, it is really a wonderful thing to be able to come back here. I remember coming here. I think you showed me how it was burnt, and it needed to be essentially rebuilt. And so to come back here and see the rebuilding and the result of it is, it's really heartwarming.
Esther Pavihi: Thank you so much. Well, shall we start with the interview? We'll probably start with the light-hearted topics first.
Foreign Minister: Are there light-hearted topics?
Esther Pavihi: Yes - relationship with Niue and Australia. With your bilateral talks with the Prime Minister, there's been some talk here of Niue, having a Niue High Commission in Australia. Is that part of the conversations? And is that something Australia would like to support Niue with?
Foreign Minister: First, I want to say it was good to see the Prime Minister and Mrs. Tagelagi last night. And we will have further discussions with the Prime Minister today. And he spoke about it last night. He said, obviously, you've got your principal relationship with New Zealand, but Australia's alongside. And that's how I like to think about it. In terms of what the Government of Niue wants for its presence in Australia, that's a matter for your leaders. But we're very happy to facilitate whatever they want in terms of their presence in Australia.
Esther Pavihi: And Australia's presence in Niue. There's been a piece of land that's been cleared, and of course, everyone's saying, oh, that's the Australian High Commission that's going to be built there. So, Minister, are you going to break ground? When can we expect to see the physical infrastructure of the Australian High Commission here in Alofi?
Foreign Minister: Well, we as a country have made a decision a number of years ago to really invest in our presence in the Pacific. And so, we have opened or have presence in every country of the Pacific Islands Forum. And that's a very clear decision about the importance of the region, our relationship with and responsibility to the region. And part of that is being here and showing up. So obviously we'd like to have that presence maximised however we can, and we're working with the Niuean government on having our own presence. Right now we're co-located, but we also have staff here, so that's a good thing.
Esther Pavihi: Wonderful. Alright. People connections in the Pacific. That is something I know that is very important to you and the Australian Government. The low population here in Niue remains one of our key challenges. And there's quite a large – well, in terms of Niue in general population – large population of Niueans in Australia who worked there for quite a long time. Some of them have spoken to us about wanting to retire to Niue, but are not able to bring or to have their super accessible here, in terms of superannuation portability. Is that something the Australian government will look into for Niueans who want to return to retire?
Foreign Minister: I'd like us to be able to facilitate that. You have, I think it's 6,000 Niueans in Australia, which given it's only about 1,600 on the island, that just gives you some sense of, you know, your projection into other countries, particularly Australia and obviously even more in New Zealand. We'd like to facilitate that. It will require, under our rules, a fund that meets the requirements in Niue. We are doing this already with Cook Islands because they raised it with me when I went there and we're working through that with them. So we would need to make sure that the government here could establish a fund which enabled us to provide that portability. So we're very open to that discussion. But I understand, you know, having gone for a lovely walk this morning, why people would want to come back here in their retirement.
Esther Pavihi: Oh, and speaking on that walk, I did see you, and that was me that beeped.
Foreign Minister: Oh, was it you that beeped!
Esther Pavihi: And I am sorry.
Foreign Minister: I was wondering if someone was annoyed with me walking on the road. Someone was beeping.
Esther Pavihi: That is actually how we show respect and how we say, “Hello!”
Foreign Minister: Oh, I'm glad to know that. I had another guy drive past, lent out the window, said, “Hey, Penny, hello!” I just said hi.
Esther Pavihi: Well, I had my windows up and the aircon wasn’t working, so thank you so much for that. Let's talk tourism and economic development. This has always been a key thing about Niue. Air New Zealand is the only carrier that services Niue. In terms of economic development and tourism, is that something the Australian Government will look into, an air services link between one major city in Australia and to Niue, or via another port?
Foreign Minister: Well first, Niue is beautiful. It really is. And last time I came, I didn't have the opportunity to stay overnight because we were trying to fit a lot of Pacific nations into that trip. And I was glad I had the opportunity to stay here last night and wake up to the view that I did. It's so beautiful. Obviously aviation arrangements are really important to the people of the Pacific. So everywhere I go there's a discussion about can we get more flights. And certainly I know the High Commissioner will be putting that to the commercial operators to see what is viable. Obviously, ultimately, there has to be a commercial viability. So governments can assist to some extent, but there has to be a commercial viability. So we'll certainly have a conversation with the airlines about it.
Esther Pavihi: Wonderful. And I know, and of course, here in Niue, we have our responsibility in terms of providing the necessary accommodation for when those visitors come through. So there's a lot of work. Education, Australia has been providing scholarships to Niueans for a very long time, and I am a recipient of one of those. I came to the University of Newcastle in the last century. [Laughter] But anyway, since then –
Foreign Minister: What did you study as?
Esther Pavihi: I studied tourism management.
Foreign Minister: So you can fix that, you can fix the flights issue. [Laughter]
Esther Pavihi: Yes, so that was interesting. But anyway, the scholarship and the way in which it's set up right now is Niuean students for undergraduate courses can study only at –
Foreign Minister: USP [The University of the South Pacific].
Esther Pavihi: Yeah, USP. But postgraduates can come to Australia. Unfortunately, there hasn't really been a great uptake on the undergraduate courses to go to USP. Would the Australian Government consider opening that opportunity up again for young Niueans to study undergraduate?
Foreign Minister: Yes, so we do structure our tertiary education assistance in the way you described. So we provide Australia awards for postgraduate study, and we provide support for undergraduate study in the Pacific at USP or elsewhere. And the judgment there is to really try and maximise the benefit from the Australian development dollar. Where can we, how do we get the most people, the most benefit for what we're funding at the appropriate level. So that's really the judgment there. I'm also keen on trying to expand vocational training because my observation would be that that is probably something that would benefit Niue and other countries in the Pacific. So we have a Pacific Skills Program which is trying to roll out stronger vocational training support for countries, and we are working to roll that out across the Pacific. So hopefully that will also, in time to come, benefit Niueans.
Esther Pavihi: Wonderful. Now let's move into a topic that I'm quite passionate about, women, women in general, but also women in leadership. And thank you so much for the invitation to come to the Women in Leadership later on. As Foreign Minister for Australia, you would have travelled the world. What is the status of women and engagement in political decision-making in the rest of the world compared to the Pacific? Because I know this is a challenge for us in the Pacific.
Foreign Minister: First principle is why do we want more women in positions of leadership? Why do we want gender equality improved? It isn't just that we believe in equality, which I do and you do. It's also that we know that a country's development is best served where you have gender equality. That it is better for your economic growth, you get improved governance outcomes, you get improved economic outcomes. And the point about that is, as a matter of principle, I believe in equality. But my point also, when I travel, is this is actually good for your development. So that's where we start. And so we do try to make sure our development programs reflect those objectives. And for example, when you provide various economic programs, you want to think about how do we facilitate women entering the economy? How do we facilitate women's participation in markets? Even in the local market, how do you facilitate the women who are growing their vegetables coming to market and so forth? You're right, we have very different levels of gender equality throughout the Pacific and we also regrettably in some have seen much, we have unacceptable levels of gender-based violence. What I would say about Niue is you are really unusual. You have over 50% representation in your, is it Fale Fono?
Esther Pavihi: In the Fale Fono, we are at 40% now. 50% in cabinet.
Foreign Minister: Oh, in cabinet, sorry. That is, I think, the only other country in the Pacific that is like us. So we, respect to the men and women of Niue who have enabled that. And at the dinner last night, the Prime Minister introduced me to many of the advisors and high-level public servants, and they're all women. So we have a long way to go, and women's leadership matters. We are better than we were. My own country is better than we were 20 years ago when I first entered the parliament.
Esther Pavihi: I'm feeling optimistic. And we're just about to go into the general election, so I'm really looking forward to seeing a lot more women candidates put their hands up and put their name on that ballot paper. Minister, gender-based violence. Australia, the Australian Government for many years have provided substantial support, bilateral support with individual countries, but also collectively through regional organisations. And yet the Pacific has some of the worst statistics when it comes to gender-based violence and violence against women and girls. At what point do we hold our leaders to account for the inaction to address that, as the numbers continue, women continue to die and to be hurt because of this. As a main contributor towards women empowerment programs, whether that's throughout the Pacific, will the Australian Government hold our leaders to account?
Foreign Minister: What we do is, as you say, we fund programs to try and reduce gender-based violence. And we do that both through our development program, where we try to ensure that 80% of that funding has a gender equality component to it, or a dimension to it. So, it thinks how do we deliver this in a way that maximises equality? And then, as you say, a couple of years ago, I announced additional funding specifically to try and address gender-based violence. Ultimately, I believe that you change these behaviours by working with – you have to work with, rather than talk down. And that's our approach across the board. We want to engage with Pacific leaders, communities respectfully. We want to listen. We want to understand and we want to respond respectfully. And so working with, I think, is the way you approach these things. And working with men and male leaders and also working with women. Like I have met some of the most impressive women that I've met in my life in the Pacific. Strong women, women who are working to reduce violence, to teach children, to bring more women into positions of authority and circumstances which are often culturally very, very difficult for them. So the more we can empower those women in the ways we can, I think that is a good thing.
Esther Pavihi: That is quite interesting that in platforms like the Forum Leaders’ meetings, and even the Miss South Pacific, for example, you would expect, one would expect to have that conversation and those platforms about the status of gender-based violence in the Pacific. But that really hasn't come across. It's spoken about in the fringes, I suppose, but not really a key priority discussion. This is just from recent observations. But yes, what would your opinion be about having those conversations at regional leaders?
Foreign Minister: Well, we have had them, certainly in the Foreign Ministers’ level, there’s been conversations about equality, gender-based violence, why it's important to develop. I think working with people is the best way to deal with things, and really empowering grassroots organisations. Men and women have to work together on this.
Esther Pavihi: And education, education is key.
Foreign Minister: It is.
Esther Pavihi: My final question, Minister, and this is something that is a very relevant, current topic as well. The drugs that are being trafficked and smuggled through the Pacific is causing some real concerns for the communities in the Pacific. What assurances can you, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Australia, and of course the Australian Government, provide to our communities, to the elderly out there, that our communities are safe, given that there is a demand for these drugs coming from Australia and New Zealand.
Foreign Minister: Well we have to, you can only confront drug trafficking by working together. I mean, we know that security is a shared challenge, we know that our security as members of the Pacific family, of the Pacific community, is best served when we work together. Security issues don't end at the island shore. That's the reality. Whether it's strategic, geopolitical or drug trafficking. So we can only confront these sorts of security risks together, and that's the way in which we approach it. And so we have collectively, Forum Leaders, have agreed the Pacific Policing Initiative. They have agreed cooperation around maritime security, and we are rolling that out with other countries in the Pacific. I describe the Pacific Policing Initiative as Pacific-led, Australia-backed. Now, we're obviously a member of the PIF, but my point there is this is about making sure we have coordination and a deployable arrangement with, and training of police, that is very much led by the Pacific Island countries. We back it with training facilities and resources. Similarly, maritime security, which is really so key and has to integrate with the policing. We are seeking to work with countries of the Pacific to strengthen their maritime capability. Obviously Pacific Islanders know the oceans, you know, the ocean is central to identity, also to economic security. Unfortunately we also have to now be able to manage our waters recognising both illegal fishing but also the possibility of drug trafficking.
Esther Pavihi: That's right.
Foreign Minister: And so that's about strengthening our maritime domain capability and we have to do that together.
Esther Pavihi: And of course that will have an impact on the supply chain and interrupting that supply chain.
Foreign Minister: You have to increase the cost for those who are seeking to smuggle drugs. You have to make it more difficult for them to do it.
Esther Pavihi: That's right. How can we help, or how can, in terms of assurances, what about the demand for it? What can be done to minimise the demand for the drugs so that they don't get into Australia?
Foreign Minister: Of course, we want to reduce illegal drug use in our country, and state and federal police, that is an ongoing challenge for us, like many countries, both at the border, but also within our country.
Esther Pavihi: And that, I think, is the biggest concern, is that if the drugs are confiscated in the Pacific Islands, and if for some reason they're not disposed of effectively, it could end up back in the villages, back in young people. And we're already seeing that now in Fiji, and that's a growing problem. But like you said, Minister, working together. Is there anything else you'd like to add?
Foreign Minister: Actually, I was wondering, can I say something about the mural? You've got a wonderful mural on this new building that the Australian Government contributed to refurbishing and rebuilding. And I think the mural speaks about connection, because it's a mural that was done by a Torres Strait Islander, and also Niuean artists together. And if you read what they speak about, they speak about the connections. So I think there are Niueans in the Torres Strait. And there's obviously many themes of connection which these two artists have painted together on your building. It really speaks to the deep connections between our peoples that go back centuries and beyond. And that's a very important reminder for all of us.
Esther Pavihi: Wonderful. And that is a lovely message to end today about connections. Thank you so much. And I wish you all the very best in the rest of your stay and when you leave and head back to Australia.
Foreign Minister: Thank you.