DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Penny Wong, welcome to the program. So, does Australia support this war continuing until there is an unconditional surrender from Iran?
PENNY WONG, FOREIGN MINISTER: Perhaps I'll start with what the Government's position is and why we took the position we took. The question we asked ourselves is, how do we best protect Australians, how do we best keep Australians safe? And the judgement we made was that it was in Australia's interests for Iran to not receive, not be able to obtain a nuclear weapon and for Iran to be prevented from continuing to disrupt international peace and security. Now, we are not in a position to determine the legal basis of decisions that the United States and Israel have made, which is why we have said that is a matter for them to determine. But what we can do is make a judgement about what is in our national interests and what we support in order to keep Australians safe. So, what we've said is we support action to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon and we support action to prevent Iran from continuing to threaten international peace and security. And I can go through in detail the reasons why we think Iran is a risk. They've sponsored terrorism in their region. They have killed countless people in their region with impunity. They have failed to comply with their international obligations in relation to non-proliferation and safeguards. They have failed to allow the nuclear watchdog to be there. And they have also conducted attacks in Australia, directed attacks in Australia.
SPEERS: Yes and I think those arguments are understood. The question is about how far we're willing to support this whole war. Is it to the point of an unconditional surrender from Iran, or are you concerned that Donald Trump keeps shifting the goalposts here?
FOREIGN MINISTER: In these circumstances, it's best for us to always come back to what is our position, both as a matter of objectives and also as a matter of conduct. Which is why we have also said, we are not engaged in offensive conduct, offensive action against Iran. Your question about objectives, I said on the very first day, and I think this is reflected in the discussion, the brief discussion on the panel – regime change, we know historically has rarely been able to be imposed externally and certainly not sustainably. So, we have always been realistic about that. Our focus is on the objectives and the position I have outlined.
SPEERS: What about Donald Trump suggesting that the US must be involved in choosing the next leader of Iran? Is that appropriate?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I said in my first press conference that the future for Iran is ultimately in the hands of the Iranian people.
SPEERS: So, is it appropriate for the US to be involved in that?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, the future for Iran and its governance ultimately is a decision for the Iranian people. And that's not just a values judgement, it's also a pragmatic judgement. Again, I go back to where I was. We have seen regime change being sought by external parties historically. And I think we all know that for there to be a sustainable change of regime, it has to be something that the people of that nation back and seek.
SPEERS: Does it concern you then that the US President wants to play a role in this?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I can only outline Australia's position, David, and I have.
SPEERS: I'm just asking if it concerns you though that the US – this is a critical issue – whether the US is going to demand a say in who leads Iran?
FOREIGN MINISTER: And whatever position is articulated by others, the Australian position will be what I have just said, that this is ultimately a matter for the Iranian people.
SPEERS: On the Australians still stranded in the region. As mentioned, Dubai Airport was closed last night after an Iranian drone strike. It has now partly reopened. What has this meant for the efforts to get Australians out?
FOREIGN MINISTER: This is a very big consular effort. We have many people in the region, as you know, I've indicated about 115,000, not all of them want to leave, obviously. But still the numbers of people in the region mean this dwarfs any consular crisis we've previously had. We have opened the registration portal, which is where people can register as both being there so they get information, but also indicating that they want to leave. There have been a lot of people register. We're working through that and to date we have about 11,000 that we have assessed as eligible and seeking to leave and we've opened the portal to more countries in the region, including Lebanon, so that Australians can register. Now, I think it would be nine flights when I was preparing for this interview had left Dubai for Australia. I understand there are two more today. We've also had buses from Doha to Riyadh in Saudi Arabia. So, a land crossing because Qatari airspace has been very limited. And so we have sought to offer people an option for a land border crossing. And I understand those buses arrived safely this morning, so I'm very glad about that.
SPEERS: Can I ask, have any countries in the Middle East asked Australia for military support to help get some of these flights out?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, the issue of the flights, they make assessments of what is safe and that's why you see a very structured schedule out of Dubai. Obviously, we've had many countries which are non-participants attacked by Iran through this. You would anticipate as a consequence that we have been asked for assistance and we will work through that carefully in accordance with –
SPEERS: This is interesting. Assistance to protect them against Iran's drone and missile attacks?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Correct. And we will work through that in accordance with the position I have outlined, which is we are not participating in offensive action against Iran and we've made clear we would not participate in any ground troop deployment into Iran.
SPEERS: Ok, so this is interesting. Australia may play a role militarily in helping protect neighbouring Gulf countries from Iran's actions?
FOREIGN MINISTER: We have been asked and we will consider in accordance with those principles.
SPEERS: What sort of support might that involve?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I'm not going – if a decision is made, I'm sure that we will be transparent with the Australian people about that.
SPEERS: That's interesting. You mentioned Lebanon and the situation there. You said the other day you do not want to see a ground invasion of Lebanon. Israel has now entered Lebanon and there have been strikes there again overnight. How concerned are you about this and what does it mean for any Australians there?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Lebanon has been ‘do not travel’ for most of the country for a very long time. We have the next level down warning in relation to the north of the country, but the south of Lebanon has been ‘do not travel’ for Australians for a long time. We don't want to see a major ground offensive, a ground war in Lebanon. We do want to see Hezbollah ceasing its missiles into Israel and we want to see de-escalation on that front.
SPEERS: You mentioned earlier that Australia is not involved in any offensive operations against Iran. We do now know three Australians were on board the US submarine that torpedoed an Iranian ship, killing at least 87 people. Can you just explain to people who might be thinking, well, our personnel are being dragged into this, how are they not involved?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Australia has for a long time had Australian Defence Force personnel who work in or work with other defence forces. We call them third country deployments – so this is not a new thing. There's obviously more focus on it because of the AUKUS agreement, but it is not new for Australian defence personnel to be engaged in this way. When they are deployed in that way, we always have arrangements to ensure that any personnel comply with Australian law, Australian policy and Australian directives. Now, as you know, the Prime Minister has determined, after consultation with the NSC, that we should be open about this, the deployment on this submarine. But he has also made clear that they did not participate in the attack.
SPEERS: I appreciate some of these arrangements are long standing, but the war with Iran is new. The sinking of a vessel like this hasn't happened since the Second World War. Is there any point at which Australia would say we do not want our personnel on board for these sorts of operations?
FOREIGN MINISTER: We will make decisions in accordance with the principles I've outlined about what Australia's position is. But what I do want to emphasise is wherever there is a third country deployment, Australian law and policy and directives continue to apply and they will do so.
SPEERS: Does that mean Australia was asked at all whether it was okay to have our personnel remain on board?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I can't add to the answer I've given.
SPEERS: Look, Canada, like Australia, agrees the strikes on Iran are justified. The Canadian Prime Minister, however, does accept they are inconsistent with international law. You earlier in this interview suggested this was a matter for the United States. Why can Canada call it out but not Australia?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I'll go back to what I said earlier. We're not in a position to determine the legal basis of decisions that US and Israel have made. What we can do is make a decision and that's why I've said it's a matter for them. But what we can do is explain to Australians the position we have taken and why, which is ultimately to keep Australians safe. Now, you know there's a lot of talk about Iraq and the history of the Iraq War. You mentioned it in the discussion with the panel earlier, I think. This is not Iraq and we are not the Howard government. We are not asking Australians to accept Australian men and women being deployed into a ground war. We have made very clear the basis of the decision and the parameters of our engagement.
SPEERS: Is the rules-based order over, in your view?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I don't think it's as simple as that. I've talked for a long time about the trend away from rules to use of power that we are living in. And I've spoken about that for some time and I think that creates a number of imperatives for a government. The first imperative is to make sure we continue to assert what we want to hold on to in the rules-based order. The principles of the Geneva Conventions, international humanitarian law, and they continue to apply in this current conflict. We continue to assert the importance of the Convention on the Law of the Sea, but we also recognise that there are limits, given the position of many powers, to what the rules-based order is doing. Iran has flouted international law for decades and the international system has not been able to hold Iran to account and to take appropriate action. Of course, we would have preferred UN Security Council authority for the action that has been taken, but the UN Security Council has not been able to hold Iran to account for the things that I have described. But what we do have to do, David, is act in Australia's interest to strengthen relationships, to strengthen our position in the region and beyond. And you've heard me on this program and generally talk about the approach of our foreign policy is the region, relationships, rules and resilience. And if you look at what we've done in the region, whether it's the alliance with Papua New Guinea, whether it's the Treaty on Common Security with Indonesia, whether it's the work we are doing together with Canada and the United Kingdom, the work we are doing with Japan, you can see the Government recognises that you cannot simply rely on the United Nations and the multilateral system. You also have to buttress that by arrangements with like-minded countries to protect our interests and to protect the rules we care about.
SPEERS: Just a couple of things to pick up on that, that answer which is interesting, the international rules, you still want to uphold them, but it sounds like you're saying in cases like this with Iran, the moral case will outweigh any international law consideration.
FOREIGN MINISTER: What I'm saying is that in circumstances where the international system has not been able to effectively respond, what a government should do and what we have done is to focus very clearly on how do we best keep Australians safe, how do we best protect Australians, and that is the basis on which we have made this decision.
SPEERS: And the other part of your answer I find interesting is yes, you point to what Australia is doing with other middle powers to strengthen ties, which is what Mark Carney was suggesting in his speech to Parliament during the week, that we shouldn't be subservient to one big power. But AUKUS does mean we are attaching ourselves more closely militarily to the United States, doesn't it?
FOREIGN MINISTER: First, I think the last time I was on the program, I talked about amplified middle power diplomacy as the term for describing what we were doing. I think for Prime Minister Carney, variable geometry. It's the same concept though, right? Look, so what was the second part of your question?
SPEERS: Doesn't AUKUS mean that we're actually becoming closer and closer and more subservient to the US?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I don't accept that this is about subservience. I don't accept the framing of that question. What we are doing is working on how we best protect our sovereignty in a more contested world. And I've always believed that the alliance is one of the ways in which we protect our sovereignty because it gives us a partnership which enables the protection of Australian sovereignty. So, I guess the fundamental premise of your question is not one with which I agree. Now, Richard has already in the Parliament made very clear the sovereignty framework that applies to AUKUS and more generally that we are still a sovereign country, but we are seeking through this capability to ensure we have a capability to deter. We continue to have that capability to deter, because deterrence is central to stability and peace.
SPEERS: I want to ask you, Minister, about the Iranian women's football team here in Australia for the Asian Cup. They've been labelled wartime traitors by Iran's state-run TV after earlier in the week they refused to sing their national anthem. They have their final match in Australia tonight. Is it safe for them to return home?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I want to say about the Iranian women's team that it has been really moving for Australians to see them in Australia and that the Matildas swapping jerseys with them was, I think, a very evocative moment. It spoke to solidarity and the way in which sport can bring us together. We know this regime has brutally murdered many of its own people. We know this regime has brutally oppressed many Iranian women. And we stand in solidarity with the men and women of Iran and particularly Iranian women and girls. I don't want to get into commentary about the Iranian women's team. Obviously this is a regime that we know has brutally cracked down on its people.
SPEERS: Appreciate you don't want to put them or their families back home in any greater danger here, but can I ask, has the Government been able to have any direct contact with these players without their minders?
FOREIGN MINISTER: I can't comment on that, David. Obviously these are, ultimately matters that I would not be, decisions I'd be making.
SPEERS: Alright, Minister, a final one and on a separate matter, Australia has lodged a complaint after China had an encounter with one of our navy helicopters over the Yellow Sea. China is now accusing Australia of spreading disinformation and endangering its national security. What's your response to that? And can you just explain what this Australian helicopter was doing there?
FOREIGN MINISTER: Defence has put up a statement which is what we do after these sorts of incidents because we're very conscious of the importance of consistent transparency in relation to these matters. We are exercising freedom of navigation and freedom of overflight. We will continue to do that. The interaction was, we believe, both unsafe and unprofessional and we have made representations.
SPEERS: Foreign Minister Penny Wong, appreciate you joining us this morning. Thank you.
FOREIGN MINISTER: Great to be with you, David.