Interview with Anna Henderson, SBS World News

Anna Henderson: Penny Wong, thanks for joining SBS.

Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be with you.

Henderson: Firstly, to this escalating situation in Lebanon, you've said the Australian government is preparing contingency arrangements for Australians trapped there. Are you preparing evacuations? What help can you provide?

Foreign Minister: First, I want to say to the Australian community, many of whom have friends and family, relatives in Lebanon, I understand what a stressful time this is. I understand that people must be very concerned about the risk of escalation and about the civilian casualties we have already seen. What I would say is what I've been saying for some time, which is if you are able to leave, please leave, whether or not it might be to a destination other than your most preferred destination. If you are able to leave on a commercial option, we would urge you to do so.

Henderson: Ok, but the UK is now planning warship evacuations. So, what can Australia do for those who've been left behind?

Foreign Minister: What I would say is that we've obviously been planning contingency arrangements for some time and you would anticipate we are working with partners to look at various scenarios. We certainly will do our best to assist Australians. But as I said earlier this week, the numbers of people who are in Lebanon, who might wish to come to Australia mean that we really are urging people to look to commercial options where they are available.

Henderson: But if they're not available, Minister, are evacuations something that partner countries would conduct for Australia or Australia would do directly?

Foreign Minister: Well, obviously, we have a number of contingency plans in place, but I would again stress to you, Anna, the numbers in relation to Lebanon are much higher than anything we have seen in our evacuations out of Sudan or Israel or those we have taken from Gaza. So, these are very large numbers of Australians who are in Lebanon, which is why the Prime Minister and I have been calling for some time for people to leave. I would urge people, if you are able to leave by other means, please do so.

Henderson: Will Australia back Israel if it invades Lebanon?

Foreign Minister: What we would say is this, we would always urge observance of international law, including international humanitarian law. Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation, and it has been attacking Israel, and it has itself breached international law. What I would say is the principles of international law, including humanitarian law, that is, the protection of civilians, apply even when a country is defending itself, even when the conflict is with a terrorist organisation. So, we will always argue for international law, observance of international humanitarian law, and we will continue to do that.

Henderson: So, in the current scenario, with all the information you have in front of you, would you urge Israel not to invade or would you support Israel to invade?

Foreign Minister: No. We have urged de-escalation, not escalation. We with others in the international community, have urged that this conflict not be allowed to escalate across the region. And the reason is that that would be, you know, detrimental to and risky for all of the peoples of the region, including the people of Israel, as well as those in Lebanon.

Henderson: There were reports earlier this year that your Assistant Minister gave a direct message to the Israeli Ambassador in Australia that Australia would not support Israel if it would try to move into Lebanon. Is that still your position?

Foreign Minister: Well, our position has been to urge publicly, very clearly, de-escalation by all parties.

Henderson: Lebanese Australian leaders here in Australia are imploring you to call out Israel for what they're describing as atrocities in Lebanon. Will you do that?

Foreign Minister: I have already expressed concern publicly about civilian casualties and the potential for civilian casualties, and we will continue to do that.

Henderson: Minister, I just want to read you some of the comments that have come from our SBS News audience in response to a video posted where you spoke of Zomi Frankcom and you said Gaza is the most dangerous place on earth to be an aid worker. The responses were along these lines: Gaza, the most dangerous place on earth. Why? I'm really over the concerned but not really doing anything attitude of the Australian government. When are the sanctions starting? Lots of words, no action. Why do you abstain in the UN? Are you surprised by this sentiment, and what do you say to the Australians who are deeply concerned that the government is not putting enough pressure on Israel to prevent civilian deaths?

Foreign Minister: Well, I absolutely understand why people are so distressed by what is occurring in Gaza. And I absolutely understand why people want there to be a ceasefire, which is what we have been calling on for months, which is what the United Nations has been calling for, for months. I absolutely understand the concern over the number of civilian deaths. We have in excess of 40,000 deaths in Gaza and, you know, over 10,000 children have been killed. So, I absolutely understand why people are distressed.

What I would say is we have been, alongside others, working and calling for a ceasefire. We have been clear about the necessity of complying with international humanitarian law, and we have acted. We have acted in terms of sanctions on settlers. We have acted by ensuring that we have not provided weapons to Israel for some five years. So, these are all things that Australia has done and is doing. And we will continue to advocate for two states because that is the only way we will see peace and security for Palestinians and for Israelis.

Henderson: I understand we have the U.S. President's plane overhead, which is certainly adding to the atmosphere.

Foreign Minister: Yeah, sorry, we've got helicopters, et cetera, flying over.

Henderson: But in terms of this particular issue on humanitarian workers that you've spoken so strongly on, why won't Australia do more to obtain the Israeli drone audio that would shed more light on the IDF decision to strike the World Central Kitchen convoy?

Foreign Minister: Well, we have, I have, I have raised Zomi Frankcom's family request for that with my counterpart. As yet, I have not had a response. But more broadly, what I would say is I am determined, as Foreign Minister, to ensure we do all we can to ensure that Zomi Frankcom's death serves as a reminder of how we have to work to protect aid workers. I'm determined to do what we can to better protect humanitarian workers. I'm determined to do what we can to work with other countries, whether it's Indonesia, Switzerland or Jordan, who all attended this meeting yesterday to galvanise action for compliance with and commitment to international humanitarian law, including the protection of aid workers.

Henderson: Have you been briefed on the audio, Minister? Have you read the translation? Are you aware of what it says?

Foreign Minister: You know, obviously, Mister Binskin provided a report to the government. But what I would say is we have requested that through my counterpart and through officials that Zomi Frankcom's family's request for the audio to be provided –

Henderson: - So, you have access to the audio?

Foreign Minister: Well, I have not personally listened to the audio. What I would say to you is we have requested access in accordance with the family's wishes.

Henderson: In terms of the United Nations resolution from last week, why did Australia abstain? What was in the wording that you were concerned about?

Foreign Minister: So, Anna, we gave quite a lengthy explanation of vote which went to this. What I said, and what our ambassador here said, is we would have liked to have been in a position to support that resolution. We were not the only country in that position. A number of like-minded countries also abstained, had also been working through the week to try and achieve the sorts of amendments which would have enabled us to support the resolution. Regrettably, that wasn't possible on this occasion. But we remain committed not only to a two-state solution as the only path to peace, but also we have added our voice to calling on Israel to respond to and comply with the International Court of Justice Advisory opinion.

Henderson: Would you be prepared to put sanctions on imports coming from the Israeli settlements? I understand, for example, we still import wine from the settlements.

Foreign Minister: We have already sanctioned some settlers and some settler organisations. We obviously don't speculate on sanctions, but I will say we will continue to look at that advisory opinion and what action the government can reasonably take to continue to further a two-state solution in the circumstances where we see there not being any ceasefire. What I would say is the first and most urgent thing we need to do is to have an immediate humanitarian ceasefire, the release of hostages. We need aid to flow into Gaza, and that is why the Security Council has called for a ceasefire, and Australia, amongst others in the international community, is also advocating for the same.