Andrew Clennell, Host: Foreign Minister Penny Wong, thanks for your time. You and the Prime Minister keep calling for a de-escalation in the Middle east, but it's just not happening, is it?
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: It's good to be with you, Andrew. And of course, we're calling for a de-escalation along with the rest of the world and along with the United States seeking a negotiated outcome. And what we want to see is a negotiated outcome. We want to see the Strait open, we want to see oil flow, and we want to see relief for Australians at the bowser. So, what we have been working with international partners, with other countries for de-escalation, but also to obtain the critical fuel supplies that Australia needs.
Clennell: All right, I mean, you've got the Americans storming a naval ship and then firing on an Iranian ship. Now, what's your reaction to this?
Foreign Minister: Look, the context of all of this is the negotiations. And we all want to see those negotiations land an outcome which enables the free passage of oil through the Strait of Hormuz in accordance with international law. That's what the US actions, including the blockade, is about. And of course, it's in response to Iran blockading the Strait. So, what Australia wants, what all the countries of the world want is to have the negotiations proceed well, and an agreement for passage through the Strait of oil that the world needs.
Clennell: I mean, the President has made these comments concerning Australia not doing enough to help in the conflict. Do you have a clue what he could be referring to there? Did he mention any possible assistance to the Prime Minister in their 40-minute phone conversation last month?
Foreign Minister: We've made very clear there has been no request from the United States for assistance in relation to the Strait of Hormuz. There was a request for assistance of the defence of the Gulf countries. And the Deputy Prime Minister has outlined we've received a number of requests, including from the UAE and the United States, for the defence of regional countries. The request we determined to respond to was the United Arab Emirates. And so we have deployed a defensive capability for that purpose. What we are very clearly prepared to do, and you would have seen the Prime Minister join his counterparts at the meeting convened by Prime Minister Starmer and President Macron, where 51 countries came together to talk about post the conflict, post what we hope is a negotiated resolution, how do we work together diplomatically and militarily to keep the Strait open and to keep this vital fuel supply to the world continuing.
Clennell: Did they ask for anymore, the US though, other than that plane around the UAE, did they ask for protection of any other Gulf countries, briefly?
Foreign Minister: We've responded to the request that we were asked to respond to and we have provided a defensive capability and the Deputy Prime Minister has made clear that's in response to the UAE. But obviously that defensive capability is something that has been relevant to many regional countries because Iran was, when the conflict was proceeding, attacking many other countries, including those who had not participated in strikes on it.
Clennell: In past conflicts. Australia's put its hand up, I'm thinking Bob Hawke and the '91 Gulf War, John Howard in 2001 and 2003. Why aren't we putting up our hands to offer some form of military assistance, a naval ship or anything like that, with the US given that they are, well, the Government still insists they're our closest ally?
Foreign Minister: Andrew, we've responded to the request that has been made and we are also working with other countries about what we do when there is a negotiated outcome to ensure that the Strait remains open.
Clennell: But you don't, you don't want to front foot it, that's apparent, right? Is that because you don't want to be part of this US action?
Foreign Minister: We respond to requests.
Clennell: But you could front foot it. The Prime Minister could offer to join in the US military action if he saw fit. Why wouldn't you?
Foreign Minister: Well, Andrew, we respond to requests that are made by other countries, including our principal strategic partner, the United States. We have responded positively to the request that was made in relation to the UAE and we've been upfront about that. Now, I appreciate you have a view about that. Some people have a view about that. Our focus is we respond to these requests in a defensive capacity. We also work with other countries to seek to de-escalate and to plan for what happens after a negotiated outcome, that's the right thing to do. Alongside this, we focus very much, Andrew, on - well, just let me finish - on what really matters to Australians, which is getting more supply. That's what we are focused on.
Clennell: Do you think we're starting to align ourselves more with Britain and Europe in terms of our security or in terms of these conflicts like Ukraine and Iran rather than America at the moment?
Foreign Minister: We align with Australia's national interests. That's what we do.
Clennell: Do you have confidence in the actions of the US President?
Foreign Minister: Look, if you're talking about the blockade, I think I've answered that.
Clennell: No, I'm talking about the whole shebang, Penny Wong, everything, the posts, the various actions, the statements. Do you have confidence in the way he's going about this, Donald Trump?
Foreign Minister: Andrew, I think I've been very upfront with Australians that, including from well before this crisis, that the United States under President Trump will be a very different America. We know that power President Trump envisages, the role of America in the world differs very greatly from many past administrations. And I've also said one of the things that President Trump himself has said is one of his characteristics and one of his tactics is unpredictability. And we've certainly seen unpredictability. But ultimately, we continue to work with the Americans and engage with them very closely, particularly military to military, but also diplomatically. We also want to see, as they do, a negotiated outcome that resolves the passage through the Strait so that the world economy and global energy markets and Australians at the bowser can get back to normal.
Clennell: Do you have any concerns that Donald Trump might blow this?
Foreign Minister: This is an inherently risky situation. Of course it is. I think we've seen that. We've seen announcements of the Strait opening, announcements of the Strait closing. We've seen a fragile ceasefire. The point I have made is that ceasefire is fragile. The world needs it to hold, and we need to try to get to a negotiated outcome, and we hope that the United States and Iran can find a negotiated outcome which enables this conflict to come to an end.
Clennell: I asked you this in our last couple of interviews, Minister, have you had any direct contact in recent weeks with Marco Rubio?
Foreign Minister: Yes, I had a good call with Secretary Rubio, I think, towards the end of last month, about the Middle East and about broader issues. He's a very good advocate, very considered advocate and very thoughtful about issues in the world and in our region. So, it's always very good to be able to speak with him. I'm sure we'll speak over the months ahead. We'll have the opportunity at a range of meetings to engage with each other.
Clennell: Have you been in any other contact with him, messaging or anything of that nature, since that phone call?
Foreign Minister: No, I haven't. But I would say to you, it's a very similar pattern of engagement as I had under the previous administration. So, you don't engage with the Secretary of State all the time. They obviously have a fair bit on their plate, and Secretary Rubio has even more because he's the National Security Adviser as well.
Clennell: Last interview I did, you hadn't spoken to Rubio. Last interview I did with you last month. And you had concerns that the regime change strategy might not work. Did you express that to Marco Rubio in this phone call?
Foreign Minister: I don't go through everything I say chapter and verse in these discussions, but what I do say to you, and I think you've asked me this question before, is my position in those discussions reflect our public position, reflect what we regard as our national interest. I have been consistent, as has the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister, about our view on regime change in the early days, when that was being floated and discussed, including, I think, by the Israeli Government, as well as the United States. We expressed the view that this would be very, very difficult to achieve. That remains our view.
Clennell: Would you just say what you've been saying publicly, which is, for goodness' sake, can we get an end to this war?
Foreign Minister: For goodness' sake? They're probably not words that I would use in that way, but I think we have been clear over the period of this conflict that, as the Prime Minister said, the military objectives which Secretary Rubio outlined publicly and the President outlined, which go to the military capability, the industrial military capability and the capability of launch, as well as the security of nuclear material, have largely have largely been completed. And so it was important to move to a process of de-escalation, that is the ceasefire and negotiation, and that's what the United States have done.
Clennell: You've spoken about petrol supply. Can you confirm the Government has modelled what petrol rationing would look like? Does it involve a situation where some sites would be shut on certain days to ration fuel?
Foreign Minister: Look, I'm not going to do that, Andrew. What I am going to say to you is we are very clear eyed about the challenges we face. We know and we've been upfront about the disruption in global supply. 80% of the fuel that goes through the Strait of Hormuz comes to our region and we primarily receive refined liquid fuels from the Asian refineries. So, from Singapore, Malaysia, South Korea. That is one of the reasons why the Prime Minister and I and Minister Farrell have been engaging with the countries of the region to try and secure commitments around further supply and continued supply. And we'll continue to do that. The market is very disrupted, but this matters deeply to Australians, not just motorists, but Australians as consumers because of the importance of liquid fuels, particularly diesel, to the Australian economy.
Clennell: Now you're on the Expenditure Review Committee of Cabinet. You're seen as a pretty pivotal player there, actually. Can you confirm that under consideration is a return to a pre-1999 system of capital gains tax?
Foreign Minister: Good try, Andrew. I think you've asked me questions before about my ERC role and I always give you the same answer, which is this is a process which results in announcements and those announcements are generally on Budget day.
Clennell: Is it the right time to be changing the tax mix on property when we're in for a tough time for construction, property sale, house prices, the economy generally?
Foreign Minister: Look, I'm just not going to respond to your speculation or other speculation. You know, the Government has its tax policies. It also has a focus on intergenerational equity, we have a focus on housing supply and we recognise the importance of making sure that the next generation of Australians gets the opportunities that our parents' generation and our generation have.
Clennell: And just finally, Penny Wong, a cheeky question, if I may. Do you plan to run for the Senate again in 20 -
Foreign Minister: Because the other one wasn't cheeky?
Clennell: Maybe they've all been cheeky.
Foreign Minister: You're the only person that asked me that. I'm just focused on this term and I'll think about that when I can think about something other than fuel and what's happening in the global economy. But that would be my intention. But to be honest with you, I'm just much more focused on what I'm doing now.
Clennell: All right. Because it's a bit of a signal. Many see you going at the same time the Prime Minister does. Thank you very much for your time. Penny Wong,
Foreign Minister: Good to be with you.