David Speers, Host: Minister, welcome to the program.
Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Good to be with you David.
Speers: So how optimistic or cautious are you that the significant points of difference between the US and Iran can potentially be resolved during this ceasefire period?
Foreign Minister: This ceasefire is fragile, there's no doubt about that David. The ceasefire is fragile but the world does need it to hold. There are obviously substantial points of difference between the parties. But I think we all know that the damage that is happening to the global economy, to global energy markets, means that the world does need this ceasefire to hold.
Speers: I mean the very fact the Prime Minister is still going to visit his counterpart in Singapore later this week. You've been in contact with your regional counterparts, I understand. That suggests, doesn't it, that there is still caution that this won't necessarily be the end of the war?
Foreign Minister: And also a recognition that even if we do have the ceasefire holding which is what we want, we have had very little oil come through the Strait of Hormuz over these last weeks and you know that gap in supply to our region will have to managed. And you know, I spoke early on to Singapore, to Korea, to Malaysia, the Prime Minister, as you said, is going to Singapore, we've seen one announcement already and we will continue to work with them. I spoke to the Japanese Foreign Minister just before this interview, we want to keep engaging with our counterparts, because this is a very large shock to global energy markets, and one that will continue to have an effect.
Speers: Just on Australia's role in the region, four weeks ago, Australia deployed a Wedgetail surveillance plane to help defend the United Arab Emirates. It was an initial four-week deployment. Will that now be extended, or will the plane be brought home?
Foreign Minister: I'll leave that to Richard to make announcements about, but you would anticipate you know we have a role, which is in response to the request of the UAE. Regional partners have been experiencing attacks, you and I both know that and we –
Speers: And that doesn't –
Foreign Minister: But there's been no change to our current particular posture that I've outlined earlier.
Speers: Iran says it's allowing controlled passage through the Strait of Hormuz. Does that mean it will operate the way it did before the war or will ships have to pay?
Foreign Minister: Well, I don't know that I can interpret what Iran is saying.
Speers: So that's unclear?
Foreign Minister: It is unclear, what we would say is that freedom of navigation under international law includes freedom of navigation through the Strait, and that should be observed.
Speers: What about the nuclear threat? The enriched uranium is still there in Iran. Has the nuclear threat been removed?
Foreign Minister: I think you've seen the US outline the military objectives that have been achieved, including the degrading of Iran navy, its air force, its industrial military industrial capacity, its capacity to launch which is why the Prime Minister and I made clear it is time for de-escalation. We've seen the military objectives that have been outlined, many of them have been achieved, and what we need to do now is to seek to de-escalate. So that's why the ceasefire is important.
Speers: The uranium is still there in Iran, is it not?
Foreign Minister: Well I don't have access to the intelligence that the United States does. What I would say is that we spoke some time ago about the need, once certain military objectives have been achieved, to move to de-escalation, and that is what has happened. As I said to you in my very first answer, it's a fragile ceasefire, no doubt about that, but we all do need for it to hold.
Speers: But if there is still uncertainty around enriched uranium, if there's still uncertainty around what's going to happen with the Strait of Hormuz, let me ask you, has this war been worthwhile?
Foreign Minister: You and I spoke about Australia's position in relation to this war and the parameters that we set on our position. We talked about the military objectives, which as I've said, I think they've largely been achieved. Well, I think that, I think that is clear. But what I also said to you at the time – two things, one is we're not, we're not supportive of the idea that regime change could be imposed externally. And secondly, we saw a great difference between the regime and the people of Iran. So we see benefit now in the ceasefire holding, I think the whole world does David.
Speers: But do you accept the regime still there, the uranium is still there, the Strait of Hormuz remains under question with Iran saying it wants to control passage through the Strait, can you understand people saying well what has been achieved here?
Foreign Minister: Yes, I can understand people being really concerned about what is happening on global markets and what has happened in the Middle East, and the way this has escalated, which is why we have been saying for some time, it's time for de-escalation.
Speers: Israel also says this cease fire does not apply to its actions in Lebanon. Should it?
Foreign Minister: Yes.
Speers: So Israel should stop its pursuit of –
Foreign Minister: Well our position is that the world expects the ceasefire to apply to the region.
Speers: Before this ceasefire, Donald Trump did issue an extraordinary threat. As you'd be aware, a whole civilisation will die tonight, he said, never to be brought back again. The Prime Minister says that language was inappropriate. Was it worse than that though? Was this the President of the United States threatening a war crime?
Foreign Minister: I don't think anyone should be threatening the destruction of a civilisation, and I think that is Australia's and the Australian people's position.
Speers: Does it matter more, though, and carry greater weight when it's the President of the United States, our most important ally?
Foreign Minister: All, anyone in positions of leadership, our words do carry weight. Australia's position, as the Prime Minister referenced, is that is not something we think anyone should be saying.
Speers: Did that language shock you?
Foreign Minister: I think I've outlined our position on that.
Speers: But I am interested as Foreign Minister, do you simply see this as Donald Trump's unpredictable, unique negotiating style, or does it to you raise serious questions about the role of the US and its role as, you know, a stabilising force?
Foreign Minister: There's a lot of things that come from that, I think I have made clear our view about that statement.
Speers: It doesn't have a bigger implication?
Foreign Minister: I think I've made clear our view about that statement but what you're really talking about is a very different approach by the United States under this administration and we've spoken about that previously, David. My view about that is that we have a much more unpredictable United States. We've said that. And so what do you do about that? We do a number of things, one of them is we focus on our region, we focus on developing relationships with other powers. We continue to work closely with the United States, our institutions work very closely together. We recognise that the US will take a different view on certain issues to that which Australia will and we recognise that.
Speers: But the last five weeks in particular, has this shifted your view further on the United States under Donald Trump, the sort of language that he's used, the way he's conducted this, has this shifted your view even further?
Foreign Minister: I think, I think I have been clear with the Australian people from the time President Trump was elected that he envisaged a very different role for America in the world, and we are seeing that. We are seeing that, but what we have to do is continue to work with the US through the institutions particularly that work together well, and we need to continue to develop and strengthen the relationships with the countries of our region, and that's what the government is doing.
Speers: And can I ask you about reports of Australian Special Forces being used or being present in the region? What can you tell us about that deployment?
Foreign Minister: Well, two things, one is we don't, we don't comment on or give details that go to operational security. But what I would say is that, what I told you, I think, a month ago, what the Prime Minister has repeatedly said and the Defence Minister, remains the case – we are not taking offensive action against Iran, and that our role in the region is defensive.
Speers: Do we still have diplomats across the region, or have most of them been pulled out?
Foreign Minister: We've had some diplomats, diplomat families, dependents, return. We're public about that, when that occurs. We still have a presence in the region. We've also seen about, I think, about 12,000 Australians return home from the Middle East, which is a good thing. And I hope we can see this ceasefire hold and the region move to a more predictable footing.
Speers: Foreign Minister Penny Wong, thanks for your time.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you.