The Asia Summit – Interview with AFR Editor Cosima Marriner

Cosima Marriner, AFR Editor: The Minister has very kindly agreed to take a few questions. So I guess I'd like to start, you talked about how our trade and investment in the region hasn't kept pace with its economic growth. As you said, we're simply not keeping up. Why do you think Australian business is so conservative when it comes Asia?

Penny Wong, Foreign Minister: Should probably ask them. What do you reckon? I understand, you know, risk, actual and perceived risk. I understand some of the market, they're not necessarily a market in which we have a lot of deep expertise. I understand the short term investment time frames, and people's responsibility to boards and shareholders. But I have actually been talking about this since I came into parliament, and I've been in there a long time. And I have to say, I'm not sure I feel like a dial has been moved. 

So, when I asked Nick Moore to do the strategy - and I had a very frank discussion with him - I said, I don't know what we have to do. So I said, Can you please… I said Nick, you know how to make money. Can you give me some practical suggestions, practical suggestions about what government can do to try and shift the dial, because we need to.

What I fear is that if this trend continues, and everyone can probably tell me, justify their individual decision, or the company's individual decision not to invest in Southeast Asia engage in those markets, but in 10 years’ time, we'll see the sort of trajectory that the stats demonstrate that I refer to in my speech.

And unlike the growth in the North Asian economies, where Australia was locked into it, so their growth fed into our economy, we won't be there. The US is there, China is there, Canada's there, others are there, and they're growing, and we will have a diminishing share of a growing market that. That is not a recipe for either geopolitical weight or economic prosperity.

Marriner: So when you ask Nick Moore for some practical…

Foreign Minister: They are... Part of what we've announced, is some of the policy mechanisms that he suggested. So, all of the sort of list of things that we've done in Southeast Asia are picked out of his report - his Invested: Australia’s Southeast Asia Economic Strategy to 2040 - we are working on that. But everyone should read it.

Marriner: Just on that, though, the Government recently announced caps on foreign students enrolling in Australian universities. Is this cutting across your message about engagement with the region?

Foreign Minister: No, I don't agree. I don't think it is. I mean, I think we saw a very large spike in students post-pandemic, for the obvious reasons. If you look at universities as a whole, so as a, in aggregate, there are obviously differences within institutions. We're going back to the numbers of 2023 so that is, that's not an unreasonable proposition. It's still very substantial number of overseas students, and it's a very important sector. It's a very important industry, but we do need sustainable growth, and we obviously have a very big spike because of the pandemic.

Marriner: In your speech Minister, you talked about being concerned about the pace of China's military modernisation without transparency. In what circumstances do you see that China can be a force for regional stability?

Foreign Minister: I think that's a matter, that's up to China, isn't it? Great Powers can be a force for stability. They can be, they can express their interests in other ways. And I hope that China will be a regional power that seeks stability and peace and the maintenance of rules and norms that matter to region.

In the speech, I've talked about China quite a lot, and I'd say a few things; China is a great power and it is doing what great powers do. They seek to assert their interests. That's historically always been the case. We understand that. We also understand that there are times those interests don’t accord with our, so there will be areas of disagreement. There will be areas where we can cooperate. Part of that is dealt with bilaterally, but as I said in the speech, part of this also goes to nature of the region we want. We have a different view to China's, for example, on the South China Sea and the law of the sea. And we will keep expressing that, and we will keep encouraging others to express it, because we think that goes to stability and peace.

Marriner: I know you’ve talked a lot about, sort of, stabilising the relationship. Do you think it is stable? And are we now looking at phase two? And what does phase two look like?

Foreign Minister: I used the word stabilised before the last election because I wanted to make sure it was clear that we weren't sort of simply going back, because the world has changed. We have changed. China has changed. The region has changed. And so what we needed to have was a sort of construct that recognised, again, not so binary, right? That there were… China is a very important part of the global economy. China is a great power. It's a very important part of our region. It's very important to us. It's very important to all the countries of the world. As a great power it will assert interests that we agree with, and that we disagree with. So, we have to find a way of engaging with China that involves dialogue, that involves us being able to cooperate where we are able to, but also where we disagree, to be clear about those disagreements and to manage them wisely. I think the phrase I used was we have to navigate it wisely.

Those differences aren't going to disappear by either pretending that they’re not there. And neither do we have the option of simply pretending China is not a great power. So really, the way I thought about stabilisation was a construct that enabled us to manage those different dimensions of the relationship.

Marriner: So what's next?

Foreign Minister: I think we continue to do what we're doing. We continue the engagement. We continue the dialogue. We continue the economic relationship. We continue to manage differences wisely. We try and encourage as much dialogue, not only between China and Australia, but China and the US, and China and other countries. We continue to engage in our region in the way I’ve described.

Marriner: I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about the upcoming US election. Obviously, you know, our relationship with the US is very influential and in our relations in the region, how are you preparing for either a return of Trump or a new phase with Kamala Harris.

Foreign Minister: An easy question, isn’t it?

Marriner: I’ve got to ask it!

Foreign Minister: Of course you do. The US still remains indispensable to the sort of region and balance that I've described. And Australia has an interest in an America engaged in our region and in the world. So, that will always be what Australia advocates.

In terms of the election, I'm going to leave it to then commentators. Historically, we have worked, Australia has worked with whoever is in the Oval Office, and the Oval Office has worked with whoever is at the Lodge, and regardless of parties, political parties, I think that will that has always been the case, and it will continue.

Marriner: Thank you very much.

Foreign Minister: Thanks, everyone.