Transcript of interview with Metro TV journalist Frida Lidwina

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

9 January 2012

Frida Lidwina: Mr Rudd thank you so much for your time with us.

Minister Rudd: It's a pleasure Frida.

Frida Lidwina: I'm following issues such as last year your country banning cattle exports to Indonesia.

And now the Indonesian Government is planning to limit cattle and also frozen beef imports from Australia. Is that one of the main reasons of your visit this time to Indonesia?

Minister Rudd: Not at all, I come to Indonesia on a regular basis. Over the last four years, I think I've been here at least two or three times a year.

And I come simply because the relationship is important for Australia. I believe it's also important for Indonesia.

So what I've done on this occasion with Foreign Minister Natalegawa is to review the entire breadth of the relationship, our economic ties, our political ties as well as our common engagement and security challenges, as well as what we're doing together in the world.

And so therefore it's a regular stocktake of what we do together. It's an important relationship.

Frida Lidwina: But you did discuss about this issue?

Minister Rudd: Of course because we talk about things that we can improve and do better.

And the economic and business relationship, let's just be very honest about it, this has been a problem in the last six months or so.

In my last visit to Jakarta we dealt with this fairly extensively. And I acknowledge very much the work of the Indonesian Government through both the Agriculture Ministry, the Trade Ministry, the Coordinating Ministry for Economic Affairs together with the President in trying to overcome this difficulty.

We've still got some challenges ahead but this is a good relationship and we can deal with challenges.

Frida Lidwina: So is it true that the result is 60,000 something around 60,000 cattle per six months or something?

Minster Rudd: As Foreign Minister I don't deal with trade detail, but can I say we'll work through all of this with our Indonesian friends because the truth is this for Australia this is an important market.

And yes there have been some difficulties and I think also for Indonesia, the regular supply of beef is important.

There are challenges in other parts of the world with animal diseases like foot and mouth disease. There are also challenges of regular supply around the world as well.

But I'm confident with goodwill and good intent that we'll resolve this as we always do in the Australia — Indonesia relationship.

Frida Lidwina: So far the Indonesian-Australian two way trade has amounted to a number of US$13.8 billion as of last year and it is an increase of 14 per cent compared to the previous year.

In your opinion will our government's plans to, let's say, providing for our own meat, self sufficiency in providing our own meat, will it impact Indonesian and Australian trade in any way, because as we know Australia now is the main exporter here of beef.

Minister Rudd: The important thing to say about the economic relationship is that it's very broad. It's increased as you said by 14-15 per cent in the last 12 months.

It's currently a trade relationship which is in Indonesia's favour, I think by the tune of 1.5 billion dollars. That is you sell to us $1.5 billion more than we sell to you. We're very relaxed about that because it's a good two-way relationship.

The second point is, because it's such a broad relationship there'll be ups and downs in any component of the economic relationship.

But here's the good news: as of 10 January, the Australia-New Zealand-ASEAN Free Trade Agreement comes into force, that is, while I'm here in Jakarta. And that'll open up a whole new chapter in the Australia-Indonesia economic relationship.

So rather than being important trading partners, we should be major trading partners with each other because your economy is growing, as is ours. There's a strong future.

Frida Lidwina: What are the potentials that you see can be developed more between Indonesia and Australia in the future, especially in commercial areas?

Minister Rudd: Well the economic relationship is terrifically important.

When I look at Indonesia for example, I see an economy that is growing steadily, lifting so many people out of poverty through the leadership of President Yudhoyono.

When I look to the next decade, I see an Indonesian economy that is bigger than that of Australia's, therefore we need to focus on all the potentialities for the future:

Number one, our respective mining industries, working in each other's countries, our respective mining services industries, these are very profitable and very important industries.

Secondly, there's agriculture which we've just talked about.

Thirdly there's the services industries — financial services, construction services, as well as what we're doing in health services, education services, and shall we say, environmental management services.

This is where so much of the money is going to be made in both of our countries in the future.

Then of course, we have some manufacturing as well. So I'm very optimistic about this.

When I met today with alumni from Australian universities who are now occupying senior positions in Indonesia — like you Frida—then what happens is that we can draw upon so much goodwill in this country to open up new economic channels. That's where the future lies.

Frida Lidwina: And to another issue, Indonesia is also planning, they say, to ease requirements for visas to people from Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

And as we all know those two countries are the sources where people seeking refuge in Australia come from. Has this issue raised concern in Australia because as we know they use Indonesia to go into Australia.

Minister Rudd: Well the truth is there are many people who seek to use Indonesia as a transit country from right across the world. In fact, the largest source of those people who come is from Iran - that is, not from Bangladesh or Sri Lanka.

But on these measures, I was very pleased to hear from Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa today confirm first, that there is no policy of visa-free entry into Indonesia from these countries.

Second, that Australia and Indonesia have agreed on a joint project for supporting document integrity and avoiding document fraud, which is important for all of our systems.

And thirdly, Indonesia's policy will be subject to regular review.

These are important steps by Indonesia and we respect them.

Frida Lidwina: Similar issue but more complicated — we know that there are a number of Indonesian illegal fisherman and boat crew being held custody in Australia, not only because they are illegal fisherman but some of them are actually renting boats to people smuggling people.

But sadly some of them claim to be minors but the Indonesian Government cannot supply the legal documents for their age because they come from remote areas. So the Australian Government is applying this method in deciding those people age.

But the method is pretty old and that's why the Gillard Government is under scrutiny for using this method, they say. What is your perception on this complex issue.

Minister Rudd: Well the first thing is we share the concerns of the Indonesian Government, and that is, that we don't want to see any juvenile, any minor, any child caught up in our legal system. We don't have that legal system and neither do you in Indonesia.

Secondly, in Australia, like in Indonesia, people smuggling is an offence. It's a criminal offence.

So thirdly, what are we going to do is carefully sort out who's under age and who's not. When I was last in Jakarta, Foreign Minister Natalegawa raised these matters with me; I attended to them very quickly.

And as a result since then, we've had 19 young people from Indonesia sent back from Australia. We've got 16 who we've agreed will be sent back and there are only three who are currently before the courts.

So I think it's important to keep this in perspective.

And as to the method you use to establish a person's age, well, we can only take the advice of the experts. And as you know, Indonesia, population of 240 million, 17 000 islands, I understand documents are hard to get.

But we will be as fair and as compassionate as we can because we don't want to punish any young person.

Frida Lidwina: One more about your relationship with the United States of America. Geographically, you are closer to us than you are to them, but it seems now that Australia is becoming closer and closer especially now that the Americans are sending their troops to Darwin for training, I've heard, and the amount will be gradually add up to 2,500 if I'm not mistaken.

Is that one way for Australia trying to, let's say, be closer to America? Or what is the real purpose of that mission?

Minister Rudd: Well the first thing I'd say is that Australia and Indonesia have an excellent security relationship. And it's something that I'm quite proud of.

We've worked for a very long time on counter-terrorism. We're working also on counter disaster management in the region. We're working also to counter people smuggling and human trafficking. These are all the results of a very sophisticated security relationship.

The relationship between our two militaries is very close — between TNI and the Australian Defence Force, and between the two police forces, between the Australian Federal Police and the INP.

Now, as far as the United States is concerned, Australia has been an ally of the United States for a longer period of time than the Indonesian Republic has existed.

Frida Lidwina: Fair enough.

Minister Rudd: Since 1941. Let me be very blunt — we've always been an ally of the United States, and I've said this to our Chinese friends as well - well before the People's Republic of China was established.

The other point I'll make is this: let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.

The truth is this: in the past we've had up to 1,500 American marines training with the Australian Defence Force for up to three months at a time.

In the future, what will happen? We'll have up to 2,500 marines training for up to six months at a time. So let's keep all this in perspective.

I think people get a bit too excited about these things.

The truth is, we've been an ally of the United States for 70 years. Seven zero. And nothing, frankly, has changed.

Frida Lidwina: One more question more personal Mr Rudd. You're a very prominent figure both here and in Australia and a lot of people say Indonesians like you a lot because they didn't really favour John Howard, the previous Prime Minister before you.

How do you see the Australia-Indonesia relationship especially now that we have a lot of love and also a bit of hatred now and then on some issues.

Minister Rudd: More love than the rest.

Frida Lidwina: More love than hatred between Indonesia and Australia on some issues. How do you see Australia nowadays under the current Prime Minister Gillard?

Minister Rudd: Look, the first thing to say about Indonesia is that Australians have a deep affection for this country.

Remember it was an Australian Labor government that in the 1940s stood in support of the independence movement against the Dutch colonial masters.

In the 1940s what tended to happen is that white guys sided with white guys. That is, the European powers supported each other to maintain their colonial possessions.

The Australian Government, from my political party, the Australian Labor Government in the 1940s did exactly the reverse.

It supported the Indonesian independence movement. It argued Indonesia's case in the United Nations, and we were very involved in the early days of the emergence of the Indonesian modern nation state. That's a matter of the historical record. No one disputes it.

Secondly, speaking as a former Prime Minister myself and as a Foreign Minister, I really like Indonesia. I come here a lot. I'm here two or three times a year.

People are very very friendly. It's a beautiful country. I go to Bali a lot. I'm here in Jakarta a lot. I've been to Surabaya before. I've been to Sumatra, to Aceh. This is a beautiful country, a beautiful people. I like coming here.

So when you reflect on the questions of these difficulties from time to time, guess what? In any family from time to time there are a few disagreements. It doesn't stop you however, from being a family.

And I see us and Indonesia because of geography, because of history, we are part of the same regional family. But the ties that bind a family together are very strong.

Frida Lidwina: Thanks very much for your time Minister Rudd.

Minister Rudd: And it's good to be back in Indonesia, Terima kasih.

Media enquiries