Interview with David Speers, Sky News Agenda

Subjects: Live cattle trade; Regional Processing Centre; Aid Review; Carbon Price

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

6 July 2011

DAVID SPEERS: Kevin Rudd, thanks for your time. You head to Jakarta tomorrow, what exactly will you be seeking.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, I have got a number of reasons for being in Jakarta, one obviously relates to a review of progress on live cattle exports. Of course, there are other agendas I'm pursuing as well. We've got to prepare for the East Asia Summit this year and that involves countries like Indonesia and Australia, it's quite important for the regional security agenda.

But on live cattle, reviewing progress, I've got to say there's been significant progress made in recent days…

DAVID SPEERS: What progress has that been?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, without going to the detail, the Agriculture Minister, Joe Ludwig, has had a good series of engagements with his Indonesian counterpart and working through our embassy in Jakarta, Ambassador Moriarty, very much a Team Australia approach to getting this thing sorted.

The Prime Minister has just indicated - still a few things to iron out - but progress is emerging.

DAVID SPEERS: It's been a couple of weeks since Joe Ludwig went there and issued a list of demands or requests of Indonesia to deal with this. Is one of Australia's demands still to have access to abattoirs for Australians vets?

KEVIN RUDD: I won't go into the detail of the individual arrangements, I think that would be not helpful for the resolution of matters. What I would say is there's a fundamental question of standards, OIE international standards. Secondly, how you certify those standards to being applied. Thirdly, of course the issuing of permits, both for import and export.

They are they three sets of issues and to make sure that the animal welfare standards are right and that when we can recommence this trade - and we're all working to get it done ASAP - that it is done within humane boundaries.

DAVID SPEERS: But have Australia's demands changed at all. Are they still as they were a couple of weeks ago?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, the government's policy position hasn't changed at all.

But what we are working through with our friends in Jakarta is how to make this work practically on the ground with supply chains.

And we should be realistic about it in terms of recommencement of the trade. It's likely to start smaller rather than larger, but that's important as well because then it sends price signals back into the Indonesian market to take price pressures off beef there. As well as price signals, we hope, back into the Australian market as well.

DAVID SPEERS: When this ban was announced by the agriculture minister it was around four weeks ago, you were overseas at the time, was there any consultation with Indonesia before the suspension was put in place?

KEVIN RUDD: Well look, I don't go into the detailed diplomatic discussions with other governments on these kind of processes.

When I sat down with Foreign Minister Natalegawa in Budapest, when were attending the meeting of Asia and European Foreign Ministers, we went to the detail of the decision, we went to…

DAVID SPEERS: That was after it was announced though.

KEVIN RUDD: …detail of the decision and its operational implications. And we also then began working the framework through which myself, Marty, the Indonesian Foreign Minister, Dr Emerson with his counterpart Mari Pangetsu, and of course Senator Ludwig with his counterpart Minister Suswono in Indonesia. In those three channels we've worked systematically since then...

DAVID SPEERS: But the suggestion's been that this was announced with no consultation with Indonesia and that's led to some diplomatic issues that you're now having to mop up.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, I'd say that the relationship with Indonesia is pretty robust. Remember it was only last year we had the Indonesian president here addressing the Australian Parliament - a little more than a year ago.

DAVID SPEERS: But has this issue been handled well?

KEVIN RUDD: On the question of handling the solution of the problem, all ministers have had their shoulders to the wheel. Myself, Joseph, Craig, and working it as hard we can.

DAVID SPEERS: Have they done a good job? Has Joe Ludwig done a good job in particular?

KEVIN RUDD: I think Senator Ludwig has acquitted himself extraordinarily well, because this is primarily a detailed ag matter which goes to the adequacy of welfare standards, as well as the practicalities of the trade on the ground.

It's very easy for people to try and wave a magic wand and say there it's fixed. And remember these problems, in terms of animal welfare have been emerging over many, many, many years. In fact, I could point to a dozen reports, or at least pre-existing reports which go back to the earlier parts of the decade which in certain key respects were not implemented by our predecessors.

DAVID SPEERS: I want to move on, you have a lot on your plate at the moment, no doubt about that. Malaysia is another issue, the government's proposed agreement with Malaysia to send asylum seekers there and take refugees in return. This was announced nearly two months ago by the prime minister, when will it be finalised?

KEVIN RUDD: Well carriage of that lies with Chris Bowen, the Immigration Minister, who has been doing a great job under difficult circumstances.

DAVID SPEERS: Does it lie with you as well at the moment, or not?

KEVIN RUDD: The framework within which we operate which is the regional framework agreement, yes that's my joint responsibility with the Indonesian Foreign Minister actually.

We issued a chairman's statement of the framework within which all countries in the region could cooperate including regional assessment centres, et cetera.

DAVID SPEERS: But you don't have anything to do with this specific deal with Malaysia.

KEVIN RUDD: The operational negotiation lies with Chris, and Chris has been doing a good job in very difficult standards.

On the one hand ensuring that UNHCR concerns are met, and on the other hand dealing with the practicalities on the ground in Malaysia itself.

I know Chris Bowen well, he's a fine minister. He works very effectively on a very complex brief as any previous immigration minister would happily tell you.

DAVID SPEERS: But we still don't know when this is going to be settled, do we?

KEVIN RUDD: Well I'm not in the business of pre-empting announcement on that. It still has a way to go but I believe the minister is handling this very effectively with a very difficult brief he's been given by the prime minister.

DAVID SPEERS: On foreign aid, today you've announced the outcome of the independent review of how our foreign aid dollars are spent and what the government's going to do about it. There are some sweeping changes there, a new mission statement's been adopted to help people in poverty and also making sure there's more transparency in the aid program. What have been the problems in the program until now.

KEVIN RUDD: Well the independent review, which is the first one commissioned in 15 years, found that the program was good and effective, and being well managed by AusAID. And what it went on to say is it can be better and that's exactly the sort of advice that we're looking for.

So let's not say there's some sort of catastrophe there - that's just a wrong reading of the independent review's, the effective review's report.

The cornerstone however, of the reports recommendation, is how do we make our aid more effective; how do we make sure we're getting value for money; how do we make sure that taxpayers dollars are being properly spent.

And there are quite a number of quite specific recommendations which go to how do we make that better and more accountable to the Australian public through things like a transparency charter, but also on top of that how we make sure that our counter-fraud systems are absolutely water tight to keep any fraud or misallocation of funds at absolutely minimum.

DAVID SPEERS: Well the review said the incidence of fraud's very low. Nonetheless, there's…

KEVIN RUDD: One of the lowest in the world actually.

DAVID SPEERS: But there's been an increasing number of cases, alleged cases of fraud being examined.

KEVIN RUDD: Let's just put it in to dollar terms. The possible fraud rate, that is, those dollars which haven't yet been fully recovered, and some may well be, that is the possible loss through fraud represents 0.021 per cent of the program.

For every thousand dollars of aid going in to reducing poverty, feeding kids, vaccinating kids, building schools, every thousand dollars we spend on that, we are at risk of losing 21 cents through fraud. And let's bear in mind all those good folk from AusAID are out there working in some of the most challenging work environments in the world which may not enjoy the same probity standards as we have in this country.

DAVID SPEERS: Final question, Julia Gillard says she'll be out wearing out her shoe leather the next few weeks selling the carbon tax, will you be doing the same?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, I'll always do my part as a member of this government on a critical reform for this country. And that critical reform is putting a price on carbon. The Liberals and the Greens rejected legislation for a carbon price twice in the previous parliament, I'm glad the Greens have changed their mind, they are now backing a carbon price in this parliament.

DAVID SPEERS: They reckon they're getting a better deal.

KEVIN RUDD: Well they can speak for themselves and that will all be, I'm sure, analysed appropriately by all you folks in the media when it all comes out.

DAVID SPEERS: But does it strike you, does it irk you that they are the ones, along with the Coalition, who knocked off the CPRS.

KEVIN RUDD: I think the key thing for me is getting a price on carbon. I'm quite - I'm genuine about that because it is something that I campaigned upon in 2007 election, I said we need to put a price on carbon. I said if we didn't the economic cost for Australia in terms of the damage to our environment, the despoliation of our agriculture, the problems with Murray-Darling, the destruction of The Great Barrier Reef, forget your environmental sensitivities for the moment, put that into hard dollars and cents for rural exports, the impact on our farms and tourism in Queensland. That's why we need to put a price on carbon, to do our bit so the rest of the world does their bit, so we can bring down greenhouse gas emissions and therefore avoid irretrievable global warming.

DAVID SPEERS: Kevin Rudd, good luck in Indonesia. Thanks for your time.

KEVIN RUDD: Well as I said, strong progress delivered already I think by the agriculture minister in particular in his discussions with his Indonesian counterpart and this has been a good set of negotiations with the Indonesians by him in recent days.

DAVID SPEERS: So we'll see the trade reopened pretty soon?

KEVIN RUDD: Well there's still, as the prime minister said today, a few hurdles to be overcome, but it's been a good set of discussions which he's been having.

DAVID SPEERS: Okay, thank you.

KEVIN RUDD: Good, thanks for having me on the program.

END

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