Interview with Jim Middleton, ABC News 24, Newsline

Subjects: Live Exports, Independent Review of Aid Effectiveness

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

6 July 2011

JIM MIDDLETON: The review was commissioned by Kevin Rudd who's been Australia's Foreign Minister since the Labor Government returned to office just under a year ago.

Foreign Minister, good to talk to you again.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having me on the program.

JIM MIDDLETON: We'll get to the aid program in a moment but first to the announcement that Australia is resuming the live cattle trade with Indonesia.

What have you been able to tell Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa about the decision and what was Jakarta's response?

KEVIN RUDD: The principal negotiations here have been between our Agriculture Minister, Joe Ludwig, and his Indonesian counterpart.

Both Trade Minister, Emerson and myself have been dealing with our counterparts as well.

And what the Agriculture Minister Ludwig announced tonight in Australia was that Australia would reopen the trade with Indonesia.

Two, it would be based on international standards for animal welfare.

Three, that this would involve the tracking of animals through the system and, four, that this would be separately audited by independent auditors on the way through.

JIM MIDDLETON: Will import licences be issued now?

KEVIN RUDD: The understanding which exists between the agriculture ministers is that our step, what we have done this evening, is the right and first step.

As to next steps, that lies entirely within Indonesia's province and, as for the tonality of my conversation with Marty, always friendly.

JIM MIDDLETON: Is the Government sure that this will reintroduce certainty of supply for the Indonesian trade and can you guarantee that there will be no interruption due to a repetition of the gruesome scenes that have emerged from some - I stress some - Indonesian abattoirs in the past?

KEVIN RUDD: On the substance of the negotiations, again I'll draw you to the statement made by the Australian Agriculture Minister, Senator Ludwig, earlier this evening.

Secondly, it goes to those three sets of conditions that we have been discussing with the Indonesians to satisfy both systems.

We think this is the right way ahead.

But, as I say, next steps, of course, lie with our Indonesian friends. I've been around this business long enough to know that there may still be a few bumps in the road but that's one of the reasons why I'll be in Jakarta within the next 24 hours or so to discuss a range of things including reviewing progress on the agreement reached between Senator Ludwig and his counterpart earlier this evening.

JIM MIDDLETON: Okay, let's turn to aid.

In unveiling the report of the review today, you said you will abolish or reform any underperforming aid program.

Isn't that going to be a huge challenge for AusAID which is already struggling to manage what is an ever-growing budget?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, let's take the second part of your assumption first.

No, they're not struggling. In fact, the Independent Review of Effectiveness…

JIM MIDDLETON: Well, too much paperwork, says the review…

KEVIN RUDD: I think…

JIM MIDDLETON: Staff turnover too quick, among other things.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, to answer the question you asked, and the assumption on which it was based, which is they are struggling, what you've skated over there is the conclusion of the Independent Review of Aid Effectiveness that this is an effective and well-managed program and that it is still capable of improvement - what program isn't?

But let's go to the baseline judgments here: effective, well-managed, well-led and, on top of that, with the lowest fraud rates probably anywhere in the world for an international development agency and certainly better than most other Australian domestic government agencies.

Sure, we're going to have to expand our capabilities within AusAID as the aid program grows.

That's right but we will do so on a step-by-step basis, making sure that we're maintaining quality control, value for dollar, effectiveness, and that is the cornerstone of this entire independent review of our aid budget, to make sure that we have effective quality control of taxpayer dollars spent on reducing poverty in our region and beyond.

JIM MIDDLETON: On that issue the review notes that in the Papua - in Papua New Guinea and the Pacific, for example, only 31 per cent of programs fully achieved their objectives.

Is that a satisfactory score in your view?

KEVIN RUDD: The first thing to note is that we've only recently established objectives for all of these programs.

There were days gone by and, dare I say it, under previous governments, when things were a bit fast and loose out there.

What we have done with all of our Pacific Partnerships for Development is to make each of these bilateral arrangements results-based.

We now have a basis for measurement, whether programs are in fact achieving their objectives: number of schools built, number of teachers trained, number of latrines constructed, number of vaccinations administered. These are quite quantifiable things.

So on your question about giving things a pass or fail mark or, for that matter, an amber light if there's a bit of a problem, I think we can do that and that's the discipline I, as Minister, wish to see imposed through AusAID because I'm interested in value for money.

Australians are a compassionate lot, they want to make sure that our concept of the fair go is extended beyond the Australian continental shelf, to the region of the world beyond but we're very practical. We don't want to see waste and we want to see what we spend on the behalf of the taxpayer done well and effectively.

JIM MIDDLETON: Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, East Timor, are all significantly dependent on Australian assistance. The review suggests that they should not be given a high priority in terms of increased aid, in part because of growing corruption and lack of transparency and governance issues but isn't it a bit of a chicken and an egg situation where they can't actually improve their governance or reduce - fight corruption effectively without increased Australian assistance?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, I think you're right to add that word of caution to the Review's recommendations in this sense.

Twenty-two of Australia's 24 nearest neighbours are developing countries.

Furthermore, a lot of the countries which we assist in terms of development cooperation don't have the world's highest probity standards.

No one's particularly surprised by that and they may not have the world's best ratings on any international corruption index either.

But does that mean that you therefore do not work in these countries to improve the circumstances for people on the land - on the ground, keeping kids alive until five, making sure that young girls have a school to go to, making sure that you're providing seed technology so that crops are grown, so that people are fed and there are jobs in rural areas and that you are working with governments to improve their systems of fraud control, their overall systems of probity and governance?

These are the things that we're engaged in because that's reality. We could wish it was something else but that's reality and Australians are pretty practical. We know what it takes to deal with realities on the ground rather than just wishing they were something else.

JIM MIDDLETON: Much more priority to be given to Africa in general but in particular as well North Africa and the Middle East.

Is that in part due to the upsurge in public - popular opinion, the revolts throughout the region in the past few months?

KEVIN RUDD: Our three criteria for deciding where we invest around the world are, number one, which countries are experiencing poverty, two, where can we be effective and, three, how does it actually correlate with Australia's wider strategic and economic interests?

They are the things which guide us and for those reasons 75 per cent of our total aid program goes to Asia and the Pacific.

That's logical, that's natural, in fact, it's grown from, I think, 67 per cent only five years ago under the previous conservative government.

So this is very much the focus of what we do, however, we are increasing our programs also in southwest Asia and in Africa and, of course, in the Middle East.

You specifically asked about the Middle East.

Let me go to the core of it. Many of those countries struggling with political transition have underpinning economic challenges, poverty challenges, which have to be dealt with if we're going to assist in preserving political stability.

We have an interest in all those things: the eradication of poverty or the minimisation of it and the consequences which flow from it, which is greater stability because people have a job.

So, North Africa's a case in point. It's not the only one but that's where we're working with other partners, not just ourselves.

JIM MIDDLETON: There is much more to talk about on this subject. Our time unfortunately is up but, Foreign Minister, thanks very much again.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having me on the program.

END

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