Transcript of interview with Jim Middleton, Newsline

Subjects: UN High Commissioner for Human Rights’ visit to Australia; Regional processing of asylum-seekers; China

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

25 May 2011

JIM MIDDLETON: Foreign Minister thanks very much for joining us.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having me on the program.

JIM MIDDLETON: The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights says that the 800 asylum seekers Australia's planning to send to Malaysia are being sacrificed, quote unquote. They certainly are being punished are they not, to try to settle a domestic political problem for your government?

KEVIN RUDD: Well the first thing I'd say about the UN Human Right Commissioner is that she's a welcome guest in our country. In fact, she's here at the Government's invitation. And that's because we have an open policy for international scrutiny on all things which we do. And of course we're open to continuing dialogue with both the HRC and with any other international institution on such matters.

There are two matters which I understand the Human Rights Commissioner has raised. One concerns the provisions of the Refugees Convention, and that - and specifically the provisions within the convention on what's called non-refoulement, that is sending people back to the countries from which they've came prior to proper processing.

Another concern she's raised is about the proper treatment of refugees, consistent with the conventions concerning torture and related matters.

JIM MIDDLETON: Children too I think.

KEVIN RUDD: It has a range of provisions.

And there's a third that she has raised and that concerns also the detention of individuals while they are subject to processing.

Let me just go to each of those because I think it's important we deal with them directly.

On the first one which is the provisions of the Refugees Convention not to refoule or send back - yes of course we've been very explicit about the fact that Malaysia is not a signatory to the convention. That is why Prime Minister Gillard and the statement that she made with Prime Minister Najib of Malaysia explicitly embraced the policy of non-refoulement - that is as relates to these individuals, they will not be sent back prior to processing. That's very clear.

The second thing that is said in the statement issued by the two prime ministers is that proper treatment consistent with international standards would also be provided, dealing with that other element of the High Commissioner's concerns.

JIM MIDDLETON: On that - on that point though she says that, that assurance is not sufficient given Malaysia's record in relation to the human rights of the many thousands of asylum seekers already in Malaysia.

KEVIN RUDD: I think it's important also to reflect on one fact and that is that the United National High Commissioner for Refugees has provided his support of this arrangement. International Officer of Migration has provided their support for this arrangement. The regional representative in South-East Asia of the UNHCR has provided his support for these arrangements. And those individuals are entirely literate concerning the provisions that should be applied to anyone who is being analysed for asylum purposes.

JIM MIDDLETON: [Interrupts] So are you - are you saying, Foreign Minister, that – that Navi Pillay is wrong?

KEVIN RUDD: No, I think the Human Rights Commissioner is entitled to her point of view and free in our country always to express her point of view and for us to engage in dialogue with her about whatever needs to be addressed or dealt with.

Let me go to the other element which you have raised concerning the detention of individuals and there she makes a particular claim in relation to the international covenant on civil and political rights. And article nine of that convention refers specifically to the prohibition of arbitrary detention.

She is right to draw attention to that important provision in that covenant, except that in the definition of that through the case history of the Human Rights Committee itself over the last several decades it's been explicitly found by the Human Rights Committee that arbitrary detention per se is not of itself a violation of article nine of the convention - it's how people are actually treated - and I would draw everyone's attention to how the Human Rights Committee itself has applied this to individual cases.

In fact the 1993 case which is drawn upon there, is one which Australia was itself engaged in a matter to be resolved, or a matter for resolution with the Human Rights Committee itself on that occasion.

So the key thing is we're taking kids out of mandatory detention, we are making sure that processing times are accelerated so that once basic checks are undertaken there is a way through this.

And thirdly we're also ensuring that there is proper and humane conditions in these detention centres which I believe the Human Rights Commission itself has also acknowledged.

JIM MIDDLETON: To go back to the Human Rights Commissioner's basic point it is the case is it not that were there not concern within Australia about the numbers of boat people turning up in Australian waters this government would never have got involved in trying to do a deal with Malaysia – a swap.

KEVIN RUDD: The key question is whether any state who is a signatory to the convention applies the standards of the convention in dealing with asylum seekers wherever they come from. We take our international obligations, our international legal obligations, seriously.

The reason I've answered your questions in such detail in dealing with non-refoulement, dealing with proper treatment, dealing with detention as defined in the International Covenant of Civil and Political rights, is that that actually forms the core of any argument which would suggest that persons are being treated outside of the normal provisions of international law. And they are our responses to it.

We'll always engage with the Human Rights Commissioner on the substance of these and of course the implementation of them over time. But as a government we take these obligations seriously and I'm sure there are many countries elsewhere in the world which do not.

JIM MIDDLETON: One of the reasons the UN Human Rights Commissioner says that she is sceptical of Malaysia as a destination for these people is the question of access that the UNHCR has been given to asylum seekers in Malaysia, unlike Australia, doesn't have an open invitation. Will you press your Malaysian counterpart to allow UNHCR better access to asylum seekers under its care?

KEVIN RUDD: Well the bottom line is the provisions that are reflected in a joint statement by the two prime ministers stand out from the treatment normally extended to asylum seekers within Malaysia. That's the truth of it. That's why it's there in the statement. Why is it there in the statement? Because the Australian Government insisted that they be there, because we're mindful of our international obligations. The other point I…

JIM MIDDLETON: [Interrupts] What about - what about…

KEVIN RUDD: Let me - let me go onto that specific point. You see, this all occurs, this arrangement in Malaysia, not as some simple free standing arrangement which popped out of the stratosphere, it occurs within the framework of a regional processing agreement, a regional framework agreement which was put together and agreed by the Foreign Ministers of Australia, me, and the Foreign Minister of Indonesia Marty Natalegawa at a meeting in Bali involving states from Pakistan in one direction to Japan in the other and east to the far flung parts of Polynesia and all states in between.

And if you look at that regional framework agreement it specifically has the support of the UNHCR, very mindful of the importance of visiting individuals who are the subject of processing arrangements and of the IOM and of all participating regional states and inviting into it, international standards for the proper treatment of asylum seekers.

JIM MIDDLETON: Let's leave that topic there and turn very briefly to another. You've just returned from China where you've made it clear that you think that country is on the verge of yet another great leap forward if I can put it that way. Does that mean that…

KEVIN RUDD: As a China watcher I would not use that word…

JIM MIDDLETON: [Laughs]

KEVIN RUDD: …given what happened in the '60s. That’s a matter for you...

JIM MIDDLETON: Indeed. But does that mean…

KEVIN RUDD: Or the late '50s anyway.

JIM MIDDLETON: Does that mean that the day is even closer when China takes over from the US, as the world's greatest economic power?

KEVIN RUDD: Well this is a celebrated debate amongst let’s call it global economists – of course there are multiple measures, purchasing parity pricing or standard market exchange rates and valuation of GDP. If you use, the first so-called PPP, then there's a prospect that China will become the world's largest economy sometime late in this decade or possibly in the subsequent decade.

If you go to market exchange rate measures, the general analytical consensus is sometime in the third decade of this century and perhaps even the fourth. But whatever it is, it's going to happen, and that's what we need to begin to prepare for in terms of this country's and the world's economic relationships with this emerging economic giant.

JIM MIDDLETON: Australia has done very nicely out of China's rapid modernisation but I think in your speech – speeches - in China you were suggesting Australian business executives need to look beyond the resources boom. Have Australian companies been too complacent about China?

KEVIN RUDD: I'm not in the business of providing gratuitous advice or character assessments of individual companies or them at large, my job as Foreign Minister is to say this is what's happening guys, I think this is a useful thing to take on board and do things about.

The last 30 years we've seen this massive generation of Chinese economic growth off the back of labour-intensive manufacturing driven by export markets and that has sucked in huge quantities of energy and raw materials from around the world.

If you like to use the parlance I use in my speech it's China 1.0 - and what I describe in my speech now is China 2.0 - the new economic growth model which they announced their most recent five year plan. And what is it? A reliance instead on domestic consumption; a reliance instead on a flourishing services sector within the domestic economy and reliance on quality growth which factors in the environmental costs of growth at break neck speed, in other words qualitative growth.

This generates a whole bunch of new economic opportunities which did not exist in such large quantity in the past, particularly in the services sector and particularly what I'd describe as the whole range of urban planning, architecture design, green design, green buildings, energy efficiency, renewable energy-type services - which Australian companies are very good at - applied to these 100-plus massive Chinese mega cities which are springing up like mushrooms across the country. That's where the market opportunities lies.

JIM MIDDLETON: Our time is up unfortunately, Foreign Minister thank you very much.

KEVIN RUDD: Always a pleasure to be on the program.

JIM MIDDLETON: Thank you.

END

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