Interview with Nick McCallum and Justin Smith, Radio 3AW

Subjects: Osama bin Laden, national security, relationship with Pakistan, Afghanistan.

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

3 May 2011

NICK MCCALLUM: The Foreign Minister, Kevin Rudd, is in Washington. In fact, he appeared at a media conference with his American counterpart, Hillary Clinton, a short time ago. Now Mr Rudd obviously has been following the Osama Bin Laden story for many years, first as the Opposition spokesman on Foreign Affairs, Opposition leader, prime minister and now Foreign Minister. Justin and I caught up with him a short time ago.

KEVIN RUDD: Good morning, good to be with you.

JUSTIN SMITH: You're in Washington right now. The mood seems to be a mix between measured jubilation and flag waving cheers. What have you seen? What's the mood?

KEVIN RUDD: Well certainly in and around the White House — and I've been staying at a hotel not far from the White House — there was an outbreak of activity by people obviously relieved that Osama Bin Laden had been finally brought to justice. That's been going on for some hours overnight. It's calmed down now. I think people are also very mindful of what the future holds in terms of further retaliatory action by terrorist operations around the world.

JUSTIN SMITH: Well that beggars the question then, is the world now a safer place after what's happened yesterday?

KEVIN RUDD: I think the core question is fulfilling our legal responsibilities, to bring to justice those who have committed acts of mass murder, and that's what Osama Bin Laden has done. And we have, therefore, together with our friends, partners and allies around the world, a legal obligation to bring such individuals to justice and his case has taken nearly a decade.

Terrorists may think they can run, they may think they can hide, but ultimately the United States, together with its friends, its partners and allies, will bring these individuals to justice.

Terrorism will continue as a threat. We accept that, we understand that, but our counter-terrorism efforts are also vigilant and in a state of high alert.

JUSTIN SMITH: Okay. So specifically what is Australia doing at the moment to prepare for any eventuality?

KEVIN RUDD: Well our counter-terrorism agencies, which include both our intelligence operations and our direct security operations, obviously are coordinating closely with allies as we speak, exchanging data, exchanging information about individuals, et cetera, around the world.

Secondly, we've adjusted our travel advisory for Australians travelling abroad so that they exercise a heightened degree of vigilance and alert in their travels, given that terrorist organisations could be active in a number of places around the world.

Thirdly, we've also instructed our embassies around the world to review their own security as well. Now, of course, this is kept under continued review. We will do that.

That's the responsible course of action, but we've got to be frankly also commending of the United States for bringing this individual to justice through a highly professional operation by US Armed Forces.

JUSTIN SMITH: What about within Australia itself?

KEVIN RUDD: The advice from our security and intelligence agencies is that the existing threat level for Australia, in terms of terrorism, will remain at medium.

That has been the case for quite a long time now.

That's subject to continued review by the intelligence and security agencies. And we, of course, as a government, will be entirely responsive to any change in that advice.

NICK MCCALLUM: Minister, bin Laden, as we know, was killed in Pakistan — in July Hillary Clinton your counterpart said Pakistan weren't doing enough to help them catch Bin Laden — what has changed, and what does this do for our relationship with Pakistan. They're a pretty important part of that area aren't they?

KEVIN RUDD: Well Pakistan is very important in terms of the ongoing war in Afghanistan and more broadly in the fight against terrorism.
Plainly, as the Secretary of State has said in my discussions with her in Washington today, and subsequently in the media, Pakistan has assisted with this particular operation in terms of identification of locations. But also there are questions which still need to be answered and I believe that's part of the White House briefings as well. That will be prosecuted by the Americans in their contact with the government in Islamabad.

For ourselves we continue to work with the Pakistanis on counter-terrorism capabilities — we've done so for some years now. We will continue to do so in the future. Nothing in that part of the world is perfect. It's a question of doing what you can to enhance counter-terrorism operations and capabilities to withstand a…

NICK MCCALLUM: [Interrupts] Yeah, but as…

KEVIN RUDD: [Indistinct]

NICK MCCALLUM: …yeah, but as you see it, and without your understanding of our relationship and the American relationship with Pakistan, could what has happened yesterday do anything to jeopardise that relationship?

KEVIN RUDD: Well it's a difficult and complex part of the world and I believe this will require continued diplomacy from the Americans and their allies, including ourselves, in dealing with the government in Islamabad.

The bottom line is this; we need to work with the Pakistanis against the common threat of terrorism. Nothing is perfect. It's difficult. It is complex. But our job is simply to maximise what we can do on the ground in cooperation with the Pakistanis and we're doing so, as are other countries as well including the United Kingdom.

NICK MCCALLUM: Well let's turn the question around then Mr Rudd — were you surprised when you heard that Osama bin Laden was hiding in such plain view and allegedly the Pakistan Government didn't know it?

KEVIN RUDD: The honest answer to your question is yes I was and that is simply being straight and direct with you.

As you know, there have been multiple reports, many of them unsourced over the years that Osama bin Laden was somewhere in the mountainous areas of that part of the world which adjoins the Pakistan/Afghanistan border.

So you're right to raise the question, which is what has happened in recent months and years in terms of the attitude of the Pakistani authorities, and I'm sure the Americans will be pursuing those with Islamabad.

NICK MCCALLUM: As a key American ally, did Australia — and in particular in Afghanistan — did Australia get any heads up as to what was happening?

KEVIN RUDD: Well I will leave it to others in Canberra to answer that question.

I would not like to prejudge what my colleagues may or may not have known. I've been on the road for some time. But I would say this — under normal circumstances we would not expect that to be the case.

These are highly delicate and precise operations which operate purely on a need to know basis and for them to be as successfully discharged as this one has been requires the height of confidentiality and secrecy, so under normal circumstances we would expect not to know.

NICK MCCALLUM: Will this affect our role in Afghanistan?

KEVIN RUDD: I believe in terms of sending out a strategic message, that those who commit acts of mass murder, whether it's in New York, or whether it be through terrorists who have been trained in Afghanistan by Al-Qaeda such as those who were responsible for the Bali bombings, that then these terrorists may think that they can run, they may think they can hide, but ultimately the United States and its friends, its partners and allies, will track these people down across the world. That's what's happened here and these folk are ultimately brought to justice, as has been the case with Osama bin Laden.

JUSTIN SMITH: Minister, just finally, thank you for speaking to us, but bin Laden, obviously, a killer that needed to be brought to justice, but is there a concern that he could — his death will put him in a status that — more than what he is, a hero, a martyr?

KEVIN RUDD: Look, obviously the terrorist threat will continue. We understand that. We accept it. But you've got to think about what the alternative is — do you simply allow people who commit terrorist acts to get away with it and the answer resolutely on the part of civilised countries around the world must be a loud and strong no.

Therefore, we've got to be vigilant for the future. Australian agencies are being vigilant for the future, in partnership with friends and allies. But I think we share with the United States a deep sense of satisfaction that this mass murderer has met his end.

JUSTIN SMITH: Would there have been any benefit in capturing him alive?

KEVIN RUDD: Look, I won't comment on the hypotheticals. I'm sure the United States administration considered a whole raft of possibilities in this connection, but that is an operational matter upon which I'm not authorised to comment, and I have no information upon which to comment.

NICK MCCALLUM: Okay. Thank you very much Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd in Washington, we appreciate your time.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having me on the program.

END

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