Interview with Virginia Trioli, ABC News Breakfast

Subjects: Libya; Visit to the Caribbean; Domestic politics

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

2 May 2011

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Foreign Affairs Minister Kevin Rudd joins us now from Washington. Kevin Rudd, good morning, good to talk to you.

KEVIN RUDD: Likewise. Thanks for having me on the program.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Do you believe the Libyans when they say that Muammar Qaddafi's son and three grandchildren are dead and that that was caused by a NATO strike? Have you managed to nail that down to satisfy yourself?

KEVIN RUDD: We haven't been able to confirm those reports. Obviously we've seen them and we're waiting for authoritative statements out of NATO and out of others on this matter.

Of course the Australian Government together with other allied governments regrets any loss of innocent civilian life as a consequence of military activities in the course of this Libyan conflict but on the specific question that you ask, no, I'm unable to confirm.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: If this has happened, does it make you concerned that NATO forces are exceeding their mandate?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, the targeting by NATO deals with the command and control centres, in part, of the Libyan regime because that is directly relevant to the UN Security Council resolution which NATO is operating under, Resolution 1973, that empowers them to take all necessary measures to protect the Libyan people from attack by the Libyan regime.

Command and control centres are central to that. My best advice is that's what's been targeted here as well.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Yes, that's what General Charles Bouchard, the commander of the no-fly mission, says: we only strike military targets.

Hard to argue though, isn't it, that Saif's Tripoli home is a military target or does NATO suggest that that's where some of the command and control might actually be based?

KEVIN RUDD: Again, let's wait for authoritative statements to be made by NATO and by others on this matter but the bottom line is this: the targeting doctrine employed by NATO has been conservative against the mandate it has been delivered but when you are dealing in a war situation where you are charged by the international community to protect innocent civilians from the Qaddafi war machine which, at one stage recently, threatened to rip Benghazi apart including its population of 700,000 people, it's important that NATO is able to target also the command and control structures of the Libyan regime's armed forces.

That's the targeting doctrine which applied in these circumstances as well.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Can we then conclude from that that people such as the sons of the Libyan leader are having their children in those places where there might be command and control centres located and using them at least in part as human shields? Is that something that is in the realms of possibility?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, the detail of that, again, Virginia, I cannot confirm.

I've only arrived in Washington a few hours ago from Berlin and these matters have not been able to be confirmed but a key thing is this, I do know, having had long discussions in recent days with the British Foreign Secretary and the French Foreign Minister, whose forces are pivotal in these attacks launched against the Libyan regime's armed forces and consistent with the UN Security Council mandate that they have, that they take their targeting regime exceptionally seriously, they apply the normal filters to it, and I'm absolutely confident that they would have done so in this case as well.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: So what is this Libya contact group that you're now a member of? What can you tell us about that, Mr Rudd?

KEVIN RUDD: The Libya contact group has a mandate to work with the interim national congress of Libya which is, in effect, the interim government which is headquartered in Benghazi at the moment, to work on a political solution for the conflict which is underway in that country and, secondly, to deal with Libya's ongoing economic and humanitarian needs as well.

The foreign ministers involved include the Secretary of State, they include the foreign ministers of France and of Britain and of Germany and Japan as well.

A number of those are combatant states. Others, like ourselves, Japan, and Germany, are non-combatant states but we all believe that we have a responsibility through the international community to try and support a political solution to what's happening on the ground, through the interim national council and, secondly, to assist the Libyan people at their time of dire humanitarian need.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Yes, we are, apparently, the third highest donor to Libya since that conflict began. Why do we donate so much there?

KEVIN RUDD: The international community, through the various organisations, have appeals at times of crisis.

At the time of – let me go to another example – the earthquake in Haiti, Haiti is quite a ways away from Australia but in terms of that humanitarian appeal I think we contributed something like $25 million to $30 million to assist in what was a dire set of circumstances faced by people there.

Similarly in the case of Libya, people are dying in their hundreds in that country. There's been a requirement to support rapid evacuations from people both across the Egyptian border and the Tunisian border. That's why we proudly supported the International Office of Migration's attempts to use vessels out of the port of Misrata to get people back to Benghazi and proper medical treatment.

It's the right thing to do and Australia shoulders its burden as members of the international community, particularly given that we're not a combatant country as well.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: I understand you've cut short your Caribbean trip which was to continue our lobbying for a seat on the UN Security Council in favour of heading off the Libyan contact group. Does that, if that's true, imply that we're less confident about continuing that UN campaign and the focus has now shifted elsewhere?

KEVIN RUDD: Foreign policy, Virginia, is not a question of either this or that. Foreign policy is…

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: No but you had to direct – you had to direct your attentions at one place else – one place in particular at the one time. You can't be everywhere at all the same time.

KEVIN RUDD: That's true, that's just calling a spade a spade.

There are challenges globally. There are challenges regionally. I'm equally engaged at the moment with preparations for the East Asian Summit in East Asia which will be held later this year as we seek to craft this regional institution into something which can sustain a long term political and security agenda for East Asia to preserve peace in our region.

You mentioned the UN Security Council. Of course we remain active in that candidature, as we should be. The reason for visiting the Caribbean states though now is because we've got the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting coming up in Perth at the end of this year. The Caribbean states, some 10 or 12 of them I think, are members of the Commonwealth. We need to work with them on preparations for the agenda as well. That's the right thing to do. We take our deliberations with small states as seriously as we do with larger states and larger responsibilities.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Just finally, before I let you go, Mr Rudd, do you agree with Lindsay Tanner that the media and politicians are now locked in a rather meaningless dance of politicians' spins and stunts and on the other side the media's obsession with conflict and contradictions?

KEVIN RUDD: Yes, look, Virginia, I'll let you sort that out with Lindsay. He – Lindsay has – has hung up his political boots and he's providing commentary on these sorts of things.

He's a very smart guy. He knows a lot about politics. He knows, from a long political career, the ups and downs of it. It's his contribution to the national debate. I'm sure people in the media will as well.

I'm still in the middle of the fray and I'll leave those commentaries to others.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Kevin Rudd, good to talk to you. Thanks so much.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks, Virginia.

END

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