Interview with Virginia Trioli and Michael Rowland, ABC News 24

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

Subjects: Libya; Japan earthquake

21 March 2011

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: The Foreign Affairs Minister, Kevin Rudd, joins us now from Canberra to discuss that situation, and also, developments in Japan. Kevin Rudd, good morning and thanks for joining us.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having me on the program.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Of course, you have been calling for a long time for this no-fly zone. At this stage it would seem that those international forces who are present there in Libya have achieved something like that. They're calling it a bit of a success. Is that — from this distance, does it appear that way to you as well?

KEVIN RUDD: I don't have authoritative advice from the US or NATO military to underpin those remarks. I think it's very important that we see this, as the Pentagon spokesman said yesterday, as phase one in a multi-phase operation.

I think it's very important that we attend closely to what the military themselves declare each day. This will be a long process.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: When you say a long process, how long do you think?

KEVIN RUDD: Not prepared to predict that either. I think it depends on what the Libyans themselves do, and, of course, it depends on the tactical effectiveness of the measures taken by the United States, by the European NATO countries, and, prospectively, as I'm advised, the engagement of various — of the Arab air forces as well.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: And what is the ultimate ambition of those tactics, do you think?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, the ultimate ambition is enshrined in the UN Security Council resolution, and it's twofold.

One is the imposition of a no-fly zone to protect the Libyan people from air strikes by the Libyan regime.

But the second is this also, and it's a much broader head of power for the United States, NATO and the other participating Arab states. And that is to take all necessary measures to protect the Libyan people from the threat of attack by the Libyan regime. And that is a head of power which is broader than the no-fly zone itself.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: And, indeed, could — isn't it — could be imposed over an indefinite period of time.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, again, I'm not prepared to speculate on timelines here. The truth is, these operations are invariably very difficult, very complex, very time-consuming, very resource-intensive. The key thing is that this operation commenced. Had the United Nations Security Council not reached this decision at the end of the last week, as of about now, we would have been witnessing the butchery in Benghazi by the Libyan regime.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Of course. But nobody goes into these things without thinking how they're going to get out of it. So, if the broader head of power, as you put it, is to take all measures to protect those people, and if at the end of the initial military interventions Colonel Qaddafi stays in power and we assume still has ambitions to drive out the rebels, then foreign forces, just following this logically, will have to then remain in place or keep up their attacks in order to prevent Colonel Qaddafi from doing so. Does that seem logical?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, the first point to say is it's a fluid situation. And the second is that the United Nations Security Council itself reflects that in the last paragraph of its resolution. It uses classic UN language which says the Security Council will remain seized of this issue, unquote.

What that means is the UN Security Council, at some stage in the period ahead, will revisit what is actually happening on the ground there in terms of further resolutions or considerations by the council.

I think, at this stage, however, it is unwise to predict the unfolding of events. The key thing is to draw a line in the sand, which the international community did last Friday, and our friends and partners in NATO and the Arab states have done through the combined military operations they commenced yesterday.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: For — the way I see it this morning, Minister Rudd, is not so much a matter of predicting, it's actually wanting to know in which direction this will go and how it will end? Whether it ends with, for example, Colonel Qaddafi losing power.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, as I said, we can only operate within the parameters of the UN Security Council resolution, and it is quite…

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: But would it not be better if that was the case or if that was one of the ambitions?

KEVIN RUDD: You can try as much as you like to engineer me into a statement about, you know, changing the regime as you like, but I'm not…

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Well, I am very interested in your view about that. I think it's a legitimate interest. You are Foreign Minister and you've been outspoken on this. Do you have a view on it?

KEVIN RUDD: My view is to harness the combined resources of the international community to stop the butchery in Benghazi and to protect Libyan civilians from the regime.

As you would have observed over the last three weeks, that's been a fairly Herculean task for a whole bunch of people around the world, not least the Arab League, the Americans and the European NATO countries.

This has to be taken one step at a time. This is a very serious operation. Military assets are committed; the lives of NATO, and American and Arab League airmen are now at stake. The ongoing difficult challenge of ensuring that the targeting system deployed does not result or minimises the risk of civilian injuries on the ground. This is a very difficult operation. It has to be undertaken one step at a time. And, therefore, to engage in, sort of, shall I say, wider speculation on the future of the regime, I'm not prepared to do that.

And the other thing I'd say though is that I think the President of the United States was quoted in the last 24 hours, and something I have said repeatedly, is that this regime has lost all legitimacy. It's lost all legitimacy in the eyes of its people and it's lost all legitimacy in the eyes of the world.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: The Arab League now sounds a little nervous about what it was originally and initially calling for quite strongly, and are now starting to raise concerns about civilian casualties. What do you make of what they have had to say in the last few hours?

KEVIN RUDD: The first thing is, we need to clarify precisely what Amre Moussa himself has said. He's the Secretary General of the Arab League. As you know, Amre Moussa and the Arab League have been very forward-leaning over the last several weeks. Firstly, in expelling Libya from the councils of the Arab League, and that enabled the UN to take its initial set of actions through the Security Council. Then later, Saturday a week ago, adopted a resolution in support of the imposition of a no-fly zone.

As for these recent reports of statements from Amre Moussa, I notice within the last two to three hours there have been further media reports discounting whether, in fact, he made those remarks. A British Government source saying that he's been the subject of mis-translation. I think it's far better we establish precisely what Amre Moussa said in the last several hours.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Turning to Japan, and as I understand it, I think the last figure from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, is that there's five Australians now unaccounted for. Is that still correct?

KEVIN RUDD: That's true. Our consular officials, through the embassy in Tokyo, are doing a fantastic job.

Remember, less than a week ago we were seeking to confirm the whereabouts of 143-plus unaccounted for Australians. We've now got that down to five. And I know our consular team is dedicated. They are still in the field at Sendai, they are still engaged in all sorts of checks with prefectural officials, and our objective, of course, is to try and reduce that five down to zero. And the team have been doing a fantastic job.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: And can I just quickly ask you, do you have any qualms as Foreign Minister about the nature of this response within Japan to provide supplies, food, medicines, shelter and the like to so many people in need. It would seem that that country has been something — in paralysis when it comes, in particular, to food supplies the length and the breadth of the country. Are there any questions in your mind about why that is the case when, clearly, food production and transport still continues well in Japan.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, the first thing I'd say is the Japanese Government has been responding to appalling circumstances. Put yourself in — if we were in their position, for example, and straight away we're having to provide emergency food and accommodation for hundreds of thousands of people, that would go beyond the normal planning parameters of any disaster relief agency in most countries. That's the first point.

The second is, we in Australia, together with the rest of the international community, have outstanding offers to the Japanese for all forms of assistance. And those offers remain. If the Japanese wanted further help on these questions, I'm sure they would advise us further.

In the meantime, we respond practically and flexibly to anything which the Japanese have asked, included the continued use of our C-17 aircraft in Japan, including other forms of assistance as well.

VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Kevin Rudd, good to talk to you this morning. Thanks so much.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having me on the program.

ENDS

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