Interview on Meet the Press

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

Subjects: Libya, Yemen and Bahrain; Japan earthquake; nuclear energy

20 March 2011

HUGH RIMINTON: First though, from Canberra, Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd, good morning to you, Minister.

KEVIN RUDD: Good morning, Hugh. Thanks for having me on the programme.

HUGH RIMINTON: It's good to have you here. Can you tell us what is the very latest that you're hearing now on the situation in Libya?

KEVIN RUDD: Late last night, I spoke with the British Foreign Minister, William Hague, about the current military situation on the ground and the likely commencement of coalition operations. The Pentagon has confirmed this morning that those operations have commenced. You would have seen the direct reports of the military assets that have been deployed against the Libyan regime by coalition forces. The Australian Government fully supports this military action against the Libyan regime because it is necessary to do whatever is possible to protect the Libyan people and it is action which is entirely consistent with the authorisation of the UN Security Council.

HUGH RIMINTON: Interestingly, there was a lot of talk of a no-fly zone in the lead-up to this. But the very first actions of this conflict so far as the West is concerned did not relate to Gaddafi's planes, but rather its assets on the grounds, armoured vehicles as we understand it on the ground. Is this the template that we will see that is going to be not just against aircraft, but against any military movements from Gaddafi on the ground?

KEVIN RUDD: As the Pentagon has stated this morning, this is the first phase in a multi- phase operation which will be conducted by coalition forces. On the specific operational characteristics of each phase, I do not intend to provide any comment whatsoever. I will, however, refer to the powers which are entrusted to coalition forces through the UN Security Council Resolution. There are two main parts of that Resolution. Paragraph four of the Resolution provides a general authorisation for the use of all necessary measures by participating states, to protect the Libyan people against the threat of attack from the Libyan regime. That is a very strong head of power. Furthermore, in operational paragraph 8 of the Resolution, it deals with all necessary measures to enforce a no-fly zone. Of course, heads of power enable the Coalition forces to engage widely in the support of the protection and the Libyan people, which is the primary objective.

HUGH RIMINTON: What is the end game, Minister?

KEVIN RUDD: If you look very carefully at what the international community has agreed through the UN Security Council, it is to protect the Libyan people.

HUGH RIMINTON: Is regime change necessary to protect the people? Is there any future in Libya that you believe would be acceptable to the West that would see Muammar Qaddafi retaining full or partial control of Libya?

KEVIN RUDD: Hugh, what I'm concerned about is moving step by step through what is a very complex, dangerous and difficult military phase of the operation. Phase one of the diplomatic work in getting the UN Security Council to embrace this course of action has been hard fought, as you'll be aware. We are now into phase two which is the military phase. It is dangerous. Spare a thought also for the Coalition airmen and other Coalition military forces now putting their lives on the line to give effect to the will of the international community. This is going to be a step by step operation. I think it is very important not to get ahead of ourselves. We know how serious it got within the last 24 hours to 36 hours when we had Qaddafi's forces on the outskirts of Benghazi. And the real threat of the butchery in Benghazi had the Coalition not acted. It now has and Australia supports that.

HUGH RIMINTON: Do you think that even with this action, is there any prospect at all that Qaddafi using ground forces, may still be able to get into Benghazi which makes it very much more difficult to operate from the air?

KEVIN RUDD: I am not going to comment on specific military scenarios. I do not think that is productive and I do not think that is wise. But what I will say, and I reinforce what the Pentagon spokesman said this morning, only about a half an hour ago, and that is Qaddafi is in possession a significant military assets, significant air defence assets as well. This is no walk in the park. This is a very difficult and complex military operation. I reiterate, it is a military operation to protect the Libyan people which Australia fully supports for the humanitarian principles which underpin it.

HUGH RIMINTON: What is your assessment of Qaddafi? He has been described as deranged, as insane. I will just give you a little grab of how he was earlier this week just before the no-fly zone.

MUAMMAR GADDAFI, LIBYAN LEADER (WEDNESDAY) TRANSLATION: We will accept the challengers. If it is from within, they will be crushed. If it's from the outside, they will be crushed. If it's military, they will be crushed.

HUGH RIMINTON: There's a sense that he is almost insane and yet he seems to have conducted a hardline but quite rational defence of his own position there. How do you do judge the man?

KEVIN RUDD: People can make whatever judgements they like concerning his mental state. My responsibility as the Foreign Minister of Australia is to analyse the statements he makes and the objective measures which he implements, all of which are of phenomenal brutality. The threats he has made in relation to the civilian population, take your breath away. Therefore, it has been absolutely imperative for the international community to act with its combined military operation to stand in solidarity with the Libyan people who only three weeks ago were all cheering on the road to Tripoli. This is a necessary and moral course of action against an individual who is a brutal, bloody dictator, who has no qualms in bringing about mass casualties in his own people, to cling on to political power.

It is obnoxious.

HUGH RIMINTON: I want to talk about Japan and Libya a little bit more with the panel but just a quick question on domestic matters. The Prime Minister this week, in talking about the mandate for a carbon tax, said she always supported the ETS, she did so in 2007 and she did again in 2010. Is it your judgement that this Prime Minister always supported the ETS?

KEVIN RUDD: You will appreciate that all of my focus today and in recent days has been on a combination of Libya, the Middle East and on Japan and the ongoing Consular operation there. I do not intend to wade into domestic politics one bit other than to say this – the government's position has been consistent, that we have supported the principle of a price on carbon because it is necessary as part of global action to bring about a reduction in global warming in order to deal with the real challenge of climate change. I'm prepared to engage in more detailed debate at a later stage, but not today.

HUGH RIMINTON: We are going to take a break now. We will talk more on Japan and Libya as well when we return with our panel, Peter Hartcher of The Sydney Morning Herald and Stefanie Balogh of The Australian. And the St Patrick Day festivities this week prompted an outbreak of Irish jokes about Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott and just how green are their parties.

JULIA GILLARD, PRIME MINISTER (THURSDAY): There was a flurry this morning when his staff tried to explain to him it was a Green event about a saint, and he had to be convinced it was Patrick and not Bob.

TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: It's good to see the Prime Minister wearing green, without any prompting from Bob Brown.

KEVIN RUDD, FOREIGN MINISTER: I know for a fact Tony, that my good friends Malcolm and Joe are right behind you every step of the way.

HUGH RIMINTON: Welcome back. You're on Meet The Press with Foreign Minister, Kevin Rudd. And welcome to the panel, Peter Hartcher of the Sydney Morning Herald and Stefanie Balogh of The Australian.

STEFANIE BALOGH, THE AUSTRALIAN: Foreign Minister, good morning. How many Australians remain unaccounted for in Japan and how many Australians are still hoping to leave the country?

KEVIN RUDD: I spoke to our ambassador in Tokyo, Murray McLean, only about half an hour ago before coming on air this morning. According to Murray and our analysis here in Australia, we only have seven Australians unaccounted for. This is very good news given that some days ago we started with a list in excess of 140. Our consular officials have been out there working through each centre and we still have a team based at Sendai and we're still working with our 220 plus consular team in Canberra to reduce these numbers right down and that is what we are doing.

STEFANIE BALOGH: Are you satisfied that you have been receiving full and frank advice from Japanese authorities about the state of the nuclear crisis there?

KEVIN RUDD: When the government adjusted the travel warning for Australia several days ago, in relation to Japan, we put forward three reasons for doing so. The first was the fact that so much of the infrastructure in Japan, in Tokyo and in northern Honshu, the main island, has been damaged, affecting things such like power supply, water supply, food distribution, schools opening and so forth. Secondly, we pointed to the continued possibility of aftershocks. There was a significant one of those again last night, I'm advised. And thirdly, continued uncertainty in relation to the Fukushima nuclear plant. It is for those reasons that we put out those strong travel advisories for Australians and that is, if you were planning to travel to Tokyo or to northern Honshu from Australia or anywhere else – don't, unless your presence there is essential. And furthermore, if you are in those parts of Japan, that is, Tokyo and northern Honshu, you should leave, unless your presence there is essential. And they're the reasons we put those advices forward.

PETER HARTCHER, THE SYDNEY MORNING HERALD: Mr Rudd, does Japan have the nuclear reactors under control?

KEVIN RUDD: I think this is still very much an evolving and dynamic situation. We in Australia are deeply concerned about the current status of the reactors as is our counterpart agencies in the United States, the International Atomic Energy Agency. That has been our attitude basically from day one. We monitor this by the hour. The IAEA is monitoring it by the hour. The Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety Authority is monitoring it by the hour. And we're doing everything that we can to practically support our Japanese colleagues in a difficult situation.

But I'll be misrepresenting the situation if I said there was some certainty about this. It's because of the uncertainty that we have adjusted our travel advices.

PETER HARTCHER: If one of the world's technologically advanced powers cannot safely guarantee the management of nuclear reactors, is it time for the world to consider some sort of international protocol or treaty on the use of civilian nuclear energy?

KEVIN RUDD: As I have said in other interviews on the question of nuclear energy, there is a time and place for a full debate on that, given what has now happened in Japan. But I do not think that time and place is right at this very moment as far as the Australian Government is concerned.

The reason is, you know the position of the Australian Government, we don't support nuclear energy in this country, but I have to say that all this has given the international community some pause. But our focus now is on the crisis and dealing with the crisis.

PETER HARTCHER: OK. Well, let's go back to the Middle East if we could. You have talked about your strong support for the UN action to protect the people of Libya. Who will protect the people of Bahrain and the people of Yemen who are being violently repressed by their governments?

KEVIN RUDD: As far as Bahrain and Yemen are concerned, we're following those developments particularly closely.

I mentioned before, in the middle of the night when I spoke with the British Foreign Secretary William Hague, that we obviously discussed the timetable for operations against Libya. We also discussed the situation on the ground in Bahrain and Yemen.

On the consular front, I draw people's attentions to the information contained in the Australian consular advice for those two countries as we've got people in both of them.

In Bahrain, we have a very complex political situation unfolding because of the Shia-Sunni split within that country. We have called for restraint on the part of all parties and we monitor it particularly closely, as we are in Yemen. But this is a dynamic and unfolding situation.

I have seen the reports last night, about 42 people being killed in Sana'a, the capital of Yemen. But we are taking this one step at a time, Peter. That is the truth of it.

STEFANIE BALOGH: Mr Rudd, as you say, it is an unfolding situation. The UNHCR estimates about 200,000 Libyans are looking to cross the border. Has Australia got any plans to take any of them on a refugee status like we did after Kosovo?

KEVIN RUDD: Let me go to the High Commissioner for Refugees on the broader question of Libya and our humanitarian obligations.

Again, late last night I spoke to the High Commissioner for Refugees, Antonio Gutteres and Baroness Amos, the head of the United Nation's Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs and also the President of the International Council of the Red Cross. The reason for those three is that they are right in the frontline of humanitarian assistance. Firstly, to get medical supplies into Libya itself and Benghazi and also to assist those in the surrounding areas, that is, those excluding the Tunisian and Egyptian borders. We are providing large-scale assistance, financially, for those institutions. Today, the government is increasing its allocation to an overall allocation of $15 million to these agencies. That makes us the third largest contributor worldwide to this humanitarian effort in relation to Libya, after the United States and after the European Union.

Stefanie, on the other part of your question, Chris Bowen, the Immigration Minister has already said that in terms of the Libyan crisis, that of course, requests made to Australia will be considered through our normal processes and I would expect that to be the case.

HUGH RIMINTON: On Christmas Island, there was unrest there as you are aware in the last week. The only policy that seems to be in view that's going to be other than the one that involves Christmas Island is the East Timor solution, as it's called. What is progress there? Is there anything that you can indicate to us that suggests that that is anywhere in sight to take pressure off Christmas Island?

KEVIN RUDD: The Bali process meeting involving myself, the Indonesian Foreign Minister, as well as other ministers, as well as regional foreign ministers right from around the region, occurs in Bali later this month. We therefore will be obviously attending that. The Indonesians and others have said that this is very much a matter for regional discussion at the Bali process meeting and beyond. And that is where a full round of diplomatic engagements will occur because the bottom line here is that we are dealing with a situation as far as asylum seekers are concerned, which is not limited to Australia. It affects all the countries of our region. It affects all the countries of the world.

We've just now been talking about Libya. If you are sitting in Italy, Spain and Greece at the moment and looking at the massive instability in Libya, the prospect of large people movements across the Mediterranean and through to the countries of Europe is large; that is why global, regional and national responses are necessary.

HUGH RIMINTON: OK. You have a lot on your plate this week. Thank you very much for starting your week with us, Kevin Rudd, Foreign Minister from Canberra.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having us on your programme.

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