Interview on ABC News 24

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

Subjects: Libya, Carbon tax

27 February 2011

NEWSREADER: The Reuters news agency says the UN Security Council is divided on whether to refer the actions of Muammar Al-Gaddafi to the International Criminal Court. The Security Council's discussing a draft resolution that would impose sanctions on the Libyan leader. For more on this, Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd joins us now from Cairo.

Mr Rudd the US President Barack Obama has already imposed sanctions. What's holding the United Nations back at this stage?

KEVIN RUDD: My understanding is broadly as you've just described. That is that there appears to be agreement with the UN Security Council on the imposition of targeted sanctions against the Libyan regime, possibly agreement also on the imposition of an arms embargo against the Libyan regime. But still disagreement on the question of a reference to the International Criminal Court. That's why the council is still in session.

I should say we in Australia however have acted already with the imposition of autonomous sanctions against Libya, in terms of both financial restrictions and travel restrictions imposed on key members of the Libyan regime, and furthermore our own autonomous action in terms of an arms embargo. This follows the autonomous actions by the United States within the last 24 hours.

NEWSREADER: And what could possibly be preventing any members of the UN Security Council referring Muammar Al-Gaddafi to the International Criminal Court? What would be the argument for that?

KEVIN RUDD: Well my own view, as the Foreign Minister of Australia, is there are no valid arguments, given the atrocities which we have seen already perpetrated on the good people of Libya by an appalling regime, including the strafing of innocent civilians on the ground, deploying units of the Libyan Air Force.

Therefore in terms of what resistance may be occurring within the Security Council, we'll need to be debriefed afterwards as to why that is the case. I presume it's a concern on the part of some about precedents set in the future for reference to the International Criminal Court for other countries in the world. I presume that's it but I do not know that for a fact.

NEWSREADER: Okay and what confidence can we have that sanctions will actually do anything to weaken the resolve of Gaddafi at this stage if both - both the United States and Australia and other countries have imposed unilateral sanctions, why would we think that sanctions from the Security Council are going to have any effect whatsoever?

KEVIN RUDD: Well for example there are a number of countries in the world which do not impose autonomous or unilateral sanctions in the absence of a Security Council resolution. If a Security Council resolution is adopted then it applies to all countries.

Let's for example take countries like the United Kingdom, where I imagine the Libyan regime has a whole range of investments given historical engagements in the part of the world, on the part of key Libyan political figures. So therefore it becomes a universal arrangement and that therefore goes directly to the personal interest of key members of this atrocious regime.

I think the other reason though is this, why a sanctions regime is important, it sends a broader political message to the Libyan political and military elite, which says that the international community is acting with one voice against the atrocities being perpetrated by this regime and therefore helps to undermine the political backing which Gaddafi has, at least with part of his armed forces.

NEWSREADER: Okay Mr Rudd, some estimates - some estimates suggest that up to 2000 Libyan protesters have already been killed. At what point does this become a civil war that could require some sort of humanitarian or peacekeeping role from the United Nations?

KEVIN RUDD: Well we continue to watch this very closely because the level of deaths is now mounting and mounting and mounting and the absence of people on the ground extensively across the country, we cannot calculate precisely how many. I've certainly seen the BBC reports which talk of between one and two thousand people possibly dead and I presume many more injured. Therefore what do we need to do?

I think a further course of action for the United Nations Security Council and a further resolution would be embracing a no-fly-zone, so that we have an ability to restrain the Libyan Air Force from perpetrating further mass acts of violence on civilian - the civilian population. I think also the arms embargo is a useful measure over time in pulling the plug on international supplies to the Libyan military.

But of course in the immediate humanitarian sense, supporting organisations like the Red Crescent and the Red Cross to get assistance in on the ground to help the Libyan people with food and with other basic supplies. That is what is probably the next and immediate stage of international action.

NEWSREADER: Okay, now turning to Tunisia, overnight we've seen a return to unrest there; we've seen protesters demanding the resignation of the interim government. You're in Egypt at the moment. How stable is the transitional government there and what are the pitfalls that you can identify as they move towards democratic elections in September?

KEVIN RUDD: Just before going on to both Tunisia and Egypt, and I'll answer your question in a minute, can I just add one further point on Libya itself? And that is within the last 12 hours we have decided as the Australian Government to evacuate our own diplomatic and consulate personnel from Tripoli. We've done so following the American evacuation of about 24 hours ago and we've done so in concert with both the British and the Canadians. And our Consul General, Tom Yates and his team, have now landed safely in Malta, where I spoke with him only about half an hour ago. We've done this because the overwhelming security advice about what's happening in Tripoli itself and the very uncertain future which lies there.

Can I also say in terms of remaining Australians in Tripoli, we have already managed to get about 70 or more people out of the country. We still have about 13 Australians in Tripoli, all but one of those has been contacted. A number have made their own separate arrangements to get out and a number of dual nationals have also indicated that they themselves wish to stay.

And one further piece of consular information is this, that we've had deep concerns about the detention of two Australians by the Libyan authorities. One of those individuals has been released, a man who's been in incarceration since December. We still have real concerns however about an Australian citizen, who was put under arrest only a couple of days ago. So that's just the - to complete the Libyan update in terms of what's happening on the ground with our people, before turning to your questions about Tunisia and Egypt.

NEWSREADER: Yeah my question was Foreign Minister, with more unrest in Tunisia - the demand by protesters there that the interim government be removed - how stable is the Egyptian interim government and what are you picking up on the ground there at the moment?

KEVIN RUDD: I'll be heading to Tunisia in several days time, so I'll have a better feel for what is actually occurring on the ground there. But I think it's fair to say in both Tunisia and Egypt, there's a great period of political flux which unfolds, once you've had something as dramatic as the removal of long term military leaders or military and political leaders.

Even here in Tahrir Square in the middle of Cairo - and I visited it the square today myself, the very sort of heartland of this people's revolution in Egypt - twenty four hours ago there was a demonstration here and other parts of the city apparently calling for the removal of the interim government of Egypt as well. And there is obviously deep concern, on the part of some in the Egyptian political community, that the interim government will not be up to the task of bringing about the fundamental political reforms, which those who brought about this revolution desire.

So we're going to see all these sorts of, I think, flux and fluidity in politics in the critical period ahead. But what I still detect across the body politic here in Egypt is a determination to get on with the business of implementing these reforms. I also had the opportunity to speak to Mohamed El Baradei today in Cairo as well.

NEWSREADER: Okay and as they, you know, as Egypt makes this transition, is there a sense that countries like Australia and other western nations - I mean how much of a role do we play in helping to set up institutions like an independent judiciary, a free press?

KEVIN RUDD: Well part of the reason for my being here in Cairo, apart from thanking our embassy personnel for the fantastic job they have done in evacuating hundreds of Australians within the last month, is to speak very openly with the Egyptian authorities and other political leaders, such as El Baradei and such as Amr Moussa, who are likely to be presidential candidates, on what the international community can do now to help stabilise this country in what's going to be a very fraught political election year.

And that means being there as a flexible basis for support for the Egyptians on such things as food security, on such things as helping to deal through the World Bank with large scale urban youth unemployment and other areas of assistance as well, for example in institution building of the type that you described before. That's why I'm meeting with their prime minister and their foreign minister, as well as their finance minister and their international development minister in the next 24 hours.

NEWSREADER: And Mr Rudd, if I could just draw your attention to domestic politics for a moment, Julia Gillard's obviously announced an intention to move towards a price on carbon. Do you have any reason to think that she'll do a better job prosecuting this case than your government did in the last term of parliament?

KEVIN RUDD: Well the bottom line is the Australian Labor Government has long been committed to putting a price on carbon. The difficulty we encountered in the past was very simple. That is that the political opposition, the Liberal Party, under Mr Abbott on two occasions voted down the government's emissions trading scheme legislation, on two occasions.

What happens of course in the year ahead is that as of July 2011, July this year, the composition of the Senate changes and the Liberal Party no longer control the Senate. That's the fundamental difference which has occurred here. Putting a price on carbon represents the continuing policy of the Australian Labor Party in government.

NEWSREADER: Okay. That's the Foreign Affairs Minister, Kevin Rudd, in Egypt. We'll leave it there. Thanks for your time.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having me on the program.

END

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