Transcript of interview with Alexandra Kirk, ABC Radio, PM program

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

Subjects: Libya, Christchurch Earthquake

25 February 2011

KEVIN RUDD: Australia's view is it's imperative for the United Nations Security Council to meet again to consider a range of measures against Libya. These should include the imposition of an arms embargo, they should include the option of a no-fly zone in order to maximise protection of the civilian population, as well as appropriate humanitarian measures to assist the Libyan civilian population, and the implementation of targeted sanctions by UN member states. That is the subject of correspondence between myself and the president of the Council, and that we believe is where the UNSC should now go.

REPORTER: You'd also like Libya suspended from the UN Human Rights Council. Do you really think that Colonel Gaddafi cares if the UN chastises him for human rights violations?

KEVIN RUDD: The measures I've just referred to by the UN Security Council do not go to reputational questions; they go to material questions.

No-fly zones are practical, arms embargoes are practical, targeted sanctions are practical.

As far as the Human Rights Council is concerned, that's another matter altogether. But given the atrocious behaviour by the Libyan regime towards its civilian population, we believe that the UN General Assembly must meet and consider suspension of Libya from the Human Rights Council. It is an absolute travesty that Libya, this state and this regime, could be still a member of the Human Rights Council at a time like this.

REPORTER: What material difference do you think the international sanctions would have on Libya?

KEVIN RUDD: These occur at multiple levels. One, if you have a no-fly regime, or a no-fly zone, it impedes and ideally prevents, for example, the Libyan Air Force from strafing their own civilian population. Furthermore, arms embargoes effectively choke off the capacity of the regime in terms of their ability to sustain military operations over time. These are practical measures.

Also, there is the relevant institution called the International Criminal Court. This sometimes focusing the mind of despots and dictators around the world.

One of the utilities of the Human Rights Council would be to prepare an independent human rights assessment of the abuses undertaken so far, in order to create the basis for a case to be taken at the International Criminal Court.

REPORTER: But Libya is a not a member of the International Criminal Court, is it - or a signatory?

KEVIN RUDD: That is correct. And, as I said in the parliament the other day, it means therefore for a non-signatory state that the United Nations Security Council itself would have to refer that state to the ICC or members of the regime. These are all the measures which are on the table. We believe that, given how grave things are in Tripoli and elsewhere in the country right now, this range of measures should be considered with one objective; to protect the civilian population of Libya against these violent acts by the regime.

REPORTER: Things are moving quite quickly in Libya. The United Nations doesn't have a reputation for moving very quickly. Do you think they might act more quickly this time around?

KEVIN RUDD: I believe the United Nations must be seized of where it's failed in the past. It failed, for example, in Rwanda; it failed of course when it came to Darfur, at least in the first period. This is another test for the UN system.

I would note, however, that the UN Security Council unanimously adopted a statement, probably the first time in its history, calling upon a member state to protect its civilian population. Normally the UN Security Council only becomes involved when there are acts of aggression between states, not acts of aggression within states.

This is new territory. It's new ground. It's called the responsibility to protect, and that, in turn, informs what the International Criminal Court could and should do in relation to the Gaddafi regime.

REPORTER: You've asked also Australian officials to look at what sanctions Australia could impose on Libya, separate to the UN sanctions. What avenues are open? What extra sanctions can Australia take unilaterally?

KEVIN RUDD: In a practical sense we are working through that list right now; we're working on the detail of that. But, most importantly, right now we're working on the global responses to Libya and I hope to be meeting with the US Secretary of State on these matters in Geneva at the Human Rights Council foreign ministers' meeting in a couple of days time.

REPORTER: And just referring to the actions that Australia could take by itself, are you thinking of sending the Libyan ambassador back to Tripoli?

KEVIN RUDD: I spoke personally to the Libyan ambassador yesterday when I was in Canberra. I had a long conversation with him about our two outstanding consular cases in Libya, about which we have real concerns, and these involve the arrest and we believe incarceration of Australians, one dual national and one Australian citizen who isn't a dual national. Therefore we maintain our lines of communication with the Libyan Government through the ambassador.

REPORTER: So you think it's in Australia's interests not to, for example, send him back, that it's better to have him there as a possible line of communication?

KEVIN RUDD: We consider this on a day-by-day basis. I've already had an extensive conversation with the ambassador, which remains confidential and diplomatic in its content. But, as I said, we have also baseline interests when it comes to protecting the interests of Australian citizens, and also ensuring a continued operation of our Consulate-General on the ground in Tripoli, not just to protect Australian interests there but also as a vehicle to communicate directly with the Libyan regime as well.

REPORTER: And, finally on the New Zealand earthquake in Christchurch, is there any more news about Australians caught up there?

KEVIN RUDD: We have deep concerns about an elderly lady who we understand was occupying a house which has been significantly damaged by the earthquake. We are working our way through this as we speak. Our officials on the ground are working with the New Zealand search and rescue teams. And, as more news comes to hand, we will of course make it public.

Of course the Department of Foreign Affairs consular crisis centre has been hard at work. They've taken nearly 10,000 calls, registered more than 4000 people, and we've confirmed the safety of more than 3000 people. We continue to work through this methodically but we do, as of today, have particular concern about this elderly Australian lady.

REPORTER: Kevin Rudd, thank you.

ENDS

Media enquiries