Interview with Fran Kelly, ABC Radio National

Subjects: Middle East; ALP review.

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

21 February 2011

FRAN KELLY: Well, Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd is in our Parliament House studio. Kevin Rudd, welcome to Breakfast.

KEVIN RUDD: Good morning, Fran.

FRAN KELLY: Can you confirm reports this morning that the casualty count from events in Libya over the weekend is now in the hundreds?

KEVIN RUDD: Now, these reports to us appear to be credible and they range from 173 to over 200, and are primarily concentrated in Benghazi, which you've just indicated in your report. And together with other governments around the world we, without qualification, condemn in the strongest possible terms the use of unrestrained violence and lethal weaponry by the Libyan authorities against peaceful protesters.

FRAN KELLY: It has been by all accounts a terribly, terribly extreme crackdown because, as you say, heavy violence, there's reports of their troops using machine guns on the people and other heavy weapons firing directly against the protesters. Are you surprised by the vehemence of this crackdown?

KEVIN RUDD: The form of violence that has been deployed by the Libyan authorities is right out there compared with what we've seen from time to time in other parts of the Middle East over the last month.

Therefore, that is why the international community speaks with one voice in condemning these actions by the Libyan authorities and calling upon them to now show restraint.

The voice of democracy is being heard right across the Middle East and that voice should be heard, it should be respected and it should be allowed to express itself peacefully, otherwise Libya will find itself once again effectively excluded from the international comity of nations.

FRAN KELLY: Foreign Minister, have you met Colonel Gaddafi?

KEVIN RUDD: I think it's fair to say that I ran into Gaddafi in a meeting in Italy of the G8-G20 Major Economies Forum then hosted by the Prime Minister of Italy Mr Berlusconi.

FRAN KELLY: And so you didn't have a conversation with him? You're not - had - would've had no dialogue with him, for instance, about human rights?

KEVIN RUDD: That is correct; I have not had a conversation with him. Our position, however, on the question of human rights both in Libya and both across the wider region and across the world is consistent; and that is that the right to democratic freedoms, the right to broader freedoms are entrenched in all the relevant international covenants, including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. And these have the force of international law and therefore they should be adhered to by all signatory states; they represent the international norms, and therefore Libya has no excuse whatsoever for using such unrestrained violence against protesters.

FRAN KELLY: Colonel Gaddafi has been - done a bit of chest-thumping against - to the west over this what he says, the west encouragement of pro-democracy demonstrations; he summoned in the ambassador of Hungary who's the EU chair at the moment, signalling the end of cooperation with the EU if the EU doesn't back off. But in turn, Libya's permanent representative to the Arab League has quit his position. There are reports that members of Colonel Gaddafi's own personal guard have defective - have defected. Can you foresee that this could lead to the end of Colonel Gaddafi's 40 year old rule?

KEVIN RUDD: The first thing I'd say is that it is a tired but predictable script to be used in various parts of the Middle East to blame what is occurring on the streets of various Middle Eastern capitals on external interference. This is not external interference.

What we find is that the people of Libya - like the people of so many other countries around the region - are finding a voice. They have connected with one another through the new media, through social media. Libya has been particularly impacted by what has occurred through its near neighbour, Tunisia, in North Africa. And therefore, what we see is people saying that their rights to freedom of expression should be respected as they understand them to be respected in so many other parts of the world.

On the question of the future of the Libyan regime, there are conflicting reports in terms of the internal stability of the regime; obviously, our analytical community together with others are watching events closely.

FRAN KELLY: Have you been surprised by, let's call it the contagion, this - of pro-democracy movements standing up across the region, across Africa, across the Middle East? Do you think it's unstoppable now?

KEVIN RUDD: I think, Fran, I'd disagree with the word contagion that tends to infer something which is by definition, bad.

FRAN KELLY: Mmm.

KEVIN RUDD: Can I just say people are responding to basic impulses in all members of the human family, which is the right to freedom of expression, the right to participate in the national political life of a country, the right for freedom of association. And these know no bounds, as I've said repeatedly; they are not constricted to a culture, a country, a society, or at a particular time.

What differs across the world are the individual national circumstances which will obviously make it slower or more difficult in various parts of the world for these aspirations to be realised.

Remember in the West, what we call the West, hard-won democratic freedoms were the product of sometimes one and two centuries of struggle.

FRAN KELLY: So do you expect that it is unstoppable now? Is that what you're saying?

KEVIN RUDD: No, what I'm saying is that this is a universal aspiration. If you look at the younger generation in particular, those under 30, and the resort to the new technologies, people's experiences are now being shared right across the Middle East.

Also, let's not underestimate the impact of Al Jazeera, the television station which broadcasts consistently and continually right across the neighbourhood bringing people fresh images of protest, peaceful protest, in some cases successful protest, in various other capitals of the world.

The nature of the responses though within the region differ. Last night I spoke at some length with the Foreign Minister of Bahrain, Sheikh Khalid, about the situation on the streets in Bahrain.

You would have seen the early outbreak of violence there several days ago. To the credit of the Bahraini authorities, within 24 hours of that - and furthermore, on top of quite considerable international reaction, including our own - the Crown Prince of Bahrain withdrew the army from the streets. It has now been left to the police to maintain law and order in the streets. I was advised last night that their mission is to do so deploying non-lethal means.

That, at least as we see it so far in Bahrain, following the tragedies several days ago, is a more appropriate response to what we now see in the streets of Benghazi.

FRAN KELLY: Okay. Kevin Rudd, what about Australians caught up in any of this? Are there efforts underway to evacuate Australian nationals in Libya?

KEVIN RUDD: What we have now, both in the case of Bahrain and Libya, is a change within the last 24 to 48 hours of the travel advisory, calling upon Australians to reconsider their need to travel.

Again, to your listening public, anyone who is travelling in the Middle East or North Africa should consult what could be significant changes on a continuing basis to travel advisories, not just for those countries but also for those which are - events which are unfolding across the wider Middle East.

As far as Libya is concerned, and other countries, following events in Egypt several weeks ago, the Department of Foreign Affairs has reviewed its Consular Contingency Plans for all countries in the region, including the up-to-date registration of Australian nationals in each of these countries, including Libya, as well as the arrangements which we always have in place to assist Australians when it becomes absolutely necessary.

If there's more to be said on this, Fran, we will of course make that public in due course.

FRAN KELLY: Just finally, Kevin Rudd, the ALP review that has just been handed down last Friday takes a look at - there's two sections of the review that have not been released. The - one section deals with your performance as prime minister; the other deals with the performance of the ALP during election 2010; those sections have been kept from the public. Have they been kept from you as well?

KEVIN RUDD: I've not seen these reports. Frankly, I think it's in the wider interests of the party in a broader community if at an appropriate time they're made available for a fully informed public discussion. But that, of course, is a matter for the national executive of the party.

As I have said consistently, Fran, it's important that we see reform of this party - of which I've been a member now for 30 years - for the future; and to remain a viable party of the people we do need to undertake some fundamental reforms, not least of which is the elimination of the power of factional leaders and factions in general.

FRAN KELLY: And would you start with that by giving the rank and file more direct election capacity?

KEVIN RUDD: I think there's nothing for any political part to fear from allowing the people who make up its vast membership to have their direct voice; nothing whatsoever to fear. The only people who stand in fear of that are those who actually exercise a direct factional power.

And I think when we're talking about this party's future, that is a baseline reform which I believe those who have supported and been active in our party for decades on decades on decades, in fact, throughout the more than 100 year history of our party, these are the reforms which our rank and file would want to see.

FRAN KELLY: Kevin Rudd, thank you very much for joining us.

KEVIN RUDD: Pleasure to be on the program.

ENDS

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