Interview with John Faine, ABC Melbourne

Subjects: Sudanese referendum, Egypt, Iran, Julian Assange, foreign aid adviser review, Christmas Island victims

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

15 February 2011

JON FAINE: Kevin Rudd is Australia's Foreign Minister in the Julia Gillard Government. He joins me in the studio this morning as he visits Melbourne to see Somalis. Good morning to you, Kevin Rudd.

KEVIN RUDD: Good - actually, Sudanese…

JON FAINE: Sudanese.

KEVIN RUDD: …because they recently had a referendum in Sudan. They voted overwhelmingly for independence in the South of the country. We have some many thousands in Australia, who also participated in the vote.

Now, there's a practical challenge for the international community, which is how do you fashion this new independent state of Southern Sudan and not create a whole series of new security problems in that part of Africa?

JON FAINE: Whilst you're talking to them, the rest of the nation's talking about you. And according to various reports, including today's front page story in The Australian, there are people in the Labor Party, the Parliamentary Labor Party, who are supposed to be your colleagues. But instead, who are out to get you - even to get you out of politics.

KEVIN RUDD: [Laughs] Nice try, Jon but I'm here to talk about foreign policy and what we do by way of international development assistance policy. That's my job and...

JON FAINE: But other things get in the way. Politics can get in the way, can't it?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, I've been around for a while mate and a few things sometimes appear as bumps in the road - nothing new in that. There was a fairly large one last year, in fact.

JON FAINE: How are the wounds - have they healed?

KEVIN RUDD: You get on with the job; I think that's the expectation of the Australian people. Big things to do out there for the country. Don't mope in the corner; get on with it.

JON FAINE: Do you think you could perhaps become Prime Minister again?

KEVIN RUDD: Jon, I'm Foreign Minister of Australia. I enjoy very much being Foreign Minister of Australia. There's a lot to do and my preoccupations in the last few days have been how do we, with international communities, start the process of assisting our friends in Egypt to build a modern democratic secular state? That's a fairly big project.

I've been on the phone to counterparts - the German Foreign Minister and the British Foreign Minister, the European High Representative for Foreign Affairs, together with others around the world on this very subject. There's a lot of work to do.

JON FAINE: There might be a lot of work to do also in restoring our credibility. For how many years have we turned a blind eye to what we now recognise and were the excesses of the Mubarak dictatorship? We just suddenly discovered how bad it is, have we?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, I think it's important to put a few things into context. I think the international community recognises that the peace agreement between Israel and Egypt, under Anwar Sadat was good for stability in the region. But in the period since then, the universal democratic aspiration has grown and grown and grown, not just in Egypt but across the wider Middle East and elsewhere as well. At the end of last year, I gave a speech, which I'm sure you've memorised, Jon because I know you read all my speeches. That was a joke by the way - you can smile. But in that, I…

JON FAINE: …I go for the podcasts, rather than the reading. Transcripts are just to [indistinct].

KEVIN RUDD: Right, okay. No, I was trying to outline 10 global challenges for us for the decade ahead. And one of them was the global democratic deficit. It just doesn't go away and that's because the aspiration for democracy is universal.

It's not bound to a culture, it's not bound to a time, it's not bound to a place - people want freedom. Now, national circumstances differ - the pace at which you get there is going to differ. It took those countries in Europe some time to arrive at that destination history as well. But for…

JON FAINE: I'm not aware of anyone openly criticising Mubarak while he was in charge though.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, I stand to be corrected, in terms of what the record may be for either our Government the last three years or the previous Government's record on that. But our…

JON FAINE: Well, here's a dictator who tortured people, who has ripped off tens of billions of dollars worth of corrupt funds and salted them away in investments and real estate around the world. No-one ever said boo. Popular uprising, democracy flowers - everyone goes, he was a terrible man.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, Jon, when have you last looked at the Freedom House website? How many States in the world are described by them as either not being free or only being partially free? Out of 191 members of the United Nations, there are 87 described as free.

And the rest are described as either not free or only partially free. And Egypt has been one of them. That is why our policy on these questions, which is in support of democracy, wider human rights, is a universal policy.

JON FAINE: But do we actually - as Australia, do we criticise tyrants and despots who deserve to be criticised? Are we having a go at the other regimes - the dominos that are said to be poised to fall now?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, you may have noticed from time to time that I've gotten the occasional scrap for raising human rights concerns in the last year or two. But in relation to various countries around the world…

JON FAINE: China particularly.

KEVIN RUDD: …and not just Aung San Suu Kyi in Burma because our policy is a universal one. And let's be frank about it - it's always a challenge managing our universal policy on human rights and democracy, against the political challenges of the day.

I accept that; I understand that. But we don't walk away from the principle. There are some countries in the world that would have us walk away from the principle. We will not do so and we remain robust on that. And I go back to the point that in the absence of any controversy about Egypt or anything else, when I was reflecting over the summer on the big challenges of the decade ahead, I listed formally and explicitly, for Australia, the global democratic deficit as one of them.

One of the ten big ones - not just economic challenges, not just security challenges but basic challenges, in terms of people's right to freedom of expression as well.

JON FAINE: Thirteen minutes past nine - Kevin Rudd overnight in Iran, both in Esfahan and in Tehran. Thousands of protestors have challenged their Government's regime - the rule and regime. Tear gas has been fired at them; there have - reported of hundreds of arrests. And the militia, yet again, are out on the streets in motorbikes, beating people up. Do we condemn the Iranian regime?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, absolutely. And I join in statements, which were made in the last short period of time by the Secretary of State of the United States, Hillary Clinton: as we've embraced popular protests and called repeatedly for the last three weeks for the rights of peaceful protest to be protected in the streets of Cairo, the streets of Alexandria and the streets across Egypt, we also call for that protection to be extended to protestors in Tehran and Esfahan as well. This is a universal aspiration.

I noted some time ago, a couple of weeks ago, that it was, for me, unspeakable hypocrisy for the Iranian regime to then be calling upon the Mubarak regime to allow freedom of protest for the students in the streets of Cairo. I noted then that, that privilege was not extended to protesting students in Tehran in 2009, many of whom were brutally murdered. And some of whom have been subsequently, we believe, executed. All decent people around the world would call upon the Government in Tehran to show proper protection for the rights of their people to protest peacefully.

And to accord to them, the proper protections, which are enshrined in international covenants, including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

JON FAINE: Effectively then, you're calling for the people to overthrow the regime. That's what will happen if your words are followed through. If you allow peaceful protest, the regime will be overthrown.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, that's a piece of political science on your part. What I'm saying, Jon, is something a little different. And what I'm saying is quite deliberately, the right to freedom of protest should be protected - and the freedom to protest peacefully. And without harassment by the security forces. This should be part and parcel of the normal processes of governance anywhere in the world.

JON FAINE: Okay.

KEVIN RUDD: It doesn't matter whether it's Tehran. Doesn't matter whether it's Cairo. Doesn't matter whether it's downtown Amman. Doesn't matter whether it's Algiers. Doesn't matter whether it's Saana in Yemen - we have a universal policy. And we will act it - we will continue to make our views known, accordingly, on that basis.

JON FAINE: Unspeakable hypocrisy is what you and your government, Julia Gillard's Government, have been accused of in relation to WikiLeaks. Here is Julian Assange, who some say should be…

KEVIN RUDD: How unusual to be accused of that, by the way.

JON FAINE: …should be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. And indeed, the Norwegians say they will be nominating him for the Nobel Peace Prize. He's an Australian citizen - someone who, in some quarters, would be put on a pedestal in the city square and celebrated. But instead, he says it's not safe for him to return to Australia and he fears that his government has betrayed him.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, let's put a few facts onto the table here. I, as Foreign Minister for Australia and the Government, have consistently argued that Mr Assange should be accorded the presumption of innocence, in relation to any charges being considered against him.

JON FAINE: Whilst a task force is assembled to investigate him…

KEVIN RUDD: Furthermore…

JON FAINE: …I can't find any law that he's broken.

KEVIN RUDD: Jon, I was going to run through a few points here. Furthermore, when it comes to the charges or the potential charges, which he faces in relation to the Swedish courts, they relate to various forms of rape and, or sexual assault.

I'm in no position to comment on the content of those, let alone the veracity of those charges. But there is due legal process under way between the Swedish legal authorities and the British legal authorities.

Our responsibility as an Australian Government, in relation to Mr Assange, is no different than it is in relation to any other Australian citizen abroad. And there is about a million of them out of the country at the moment. And some hundreds, at any given time, are up before courts around the world, on various charges.

JON FAINE: Don't you think he's a special case?

KEVIN RUDD: I think my responsibility, as Foreign Minister for Australia, is to ensure that every individual's rights are protected to the greatest extent that we practically can, as an Australian Government responsible for their wellbeing around the world. Doesn't matter...

JON FAINE: Don't you think Julian Assange is a bit different to some tourist buying drugs in the market in Bangkok?

KEVIN RUDD: You're asking about an individual's legal rights, and we were talking before about universal human rights, I would've thought, Jon, that whether a person makes the front page of the newspapers or not, they should be accorded the basic protections which the Australian Government seeks to extend to its citizens abroad, and what are they? One...

JON FAINE: Well, what extent did you go to for Stern Hu in China, in protestations to the Government there over the way he was not being looked after? And here's Assange who, according to many people, ought be given even greater protection than a mining company executive, and yet he says he's been abandoned.

KEVIN RUDD: What individuals will say is one thing, what I can report to your listeners is what we are doing on the other. You've just referred to an example of Mr Stern Hu in China.

Again, our interventions with the Chinese authorities in relation to him were considerable and consistent with our obligations to support Australians around the world who find themselves before courts, fair or foul, around the world.

JON FAINE: You made interventions to the Chinese authorities. What have you done to the Swedish authorities on, on his behalf, directly to them?

KEVIN RUDD: For your information, Jon, the Australian ambassador in Stockholm has directly gone to see the Swedish authorities and has sought assurances from them that only normal legal processes, consistent with the Swedish law, will be applied in the case of this particular extradition matter, which is being considered between Sweden and the United Kingdom and through the courts in London at present.

Furthermore, what we're required to do with all Australians, not just Mr Assange, is to ensure that they have the rights and access to proper legal representation. We have sought that in relation Mr Assange and we have sought to confirm that he is happy with his legal representation.

On top of that, what we do for all Australians is to ensure that we have rights of consular access to see if they are being properly treated in a period of temporary incarceration, or long term incarceration. Mr Assange was in prison in London, I think, for a period of one to two weeks. He contacted us for consular assistance. We contacted him immediately back.

Our consular officials have been to visit him on a number of occasions. When his mother, Mrs Assange, requested assistance to see him or talk to him, we have accommodated that as well. Including on a very short time notification, which is sometimes difficult with prison authorities.

On these practical consular responsibilities, and legal responsibilities, we extend to Mr Assange that which we extend to all other Australian citizens abroad, whether they feature in the newspapers or not, and that is the responsibility of all Australian governments.

JON FAINE: On a couple of other topics, and I know your time is almost up and you need to go. You've announced an overhaul of the amounts of money paid to consultants on foreign aid packages. I think most of us will be astonished to learn that there were people on $500,000 tax free consultancies in the first place. When did you first hear about that?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, my predecessor, Stephen Smith, did absolutely the right thing, and then when these were drawn to his attention, he commissioned a review of the salary conditions concerning various technical consultants. But I think it's very important that your listeners understand this point, this practise had got right out of control over the last decade plus. Over the last decade plus.

In fact when we assumed government in 2007, technical advisors were consuming something like 42 percent of the aid budget. Now, does that mean all technical advisors are not useful?

Of course not. It means when you've got people, for example, who are professional, police, senior police officers, senior accountants, senior economic advisors, senior advisors to central banks in various developing countries, they have particular qualifications and they require remuneration.

But our judgement, and Stephen Smith's correct judgement, was that this had got out of control.

JON FAINE: Yep.

KEVIN RUDD: So he commissioned the review and what have we done? We've therefore cut the number of these technical advisors, by about a quarter and, for the first time, we've instituted salary caps. So that the most people will be paid in the future will be around 250 grand, a total package of about 300, and that would be to someone with 15 years experience in the financial sector.

So we're bringing under control something which, frankly, under our predecessors, got right out of control.

JON FAINE: And just finally, Kevin Rudd. The Opposition is saying that the Government, of which you are part, have got it wrong by flying the bodies of some of the victims of the Christmas Island boat tragedy to Sydney for funerals in Sydney and saying they should have been buried in Christmas Island, rather than observing the, the niceties, I think it's been described as, of expensive funerals.

Scott Morrison is on the television saying that this morning and I know this is an immigration matter and you're the Foreign Affairs Minister, but still a government that you're part of.

KEVIN RUDD: Yeah, well I haven't seen the detail of either what Mr Morrison has said, nor am I familiar with the precise details of what occurred in these individual and tragic cases.

But you know something, Jon? You know, I think, it's important when we face, serious human tragedy, that we respond respectfully to tragedies that have occurred. These may not be folk who are known to anybody in Australia, but they are human beings, they are part of God's creation and therefore every person should be treated with utmost respect. And I say that as a general principle, not knowing the individual details of how each individual case was handled.

JON FAINE: I'm grateful to you for your time. I've now made you late for your next engagement, for which I apologise. Thank you for coming in.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks Jon, for having me on your program.

JON FAINE: Kevin Rudd, Minister for Foreign Affairs in the Gillard Government. Twenty three minutes past nine on 774 ABC Melbourne.

ENDS

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