Interview with Ali Moore, ABC Lateline

Subjects: Egypt, Aid to Indonesia, Health reform

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

14 February 2011

ALI MOORE: To discuss the situation in Egypt and what's likely to happen both there and in the surrounding region, I'm joined now in our Parliament House studio by Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd. Kevin Rudd, welcome to Lateline.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having me on the program.

ALI MOORE: As we've just heard, the Egyptian military has dissolved the parliament. They've also suspended the constitution, they've promised elections in six months. Do you trust them to deliver on their promise?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, today I've been speaking with a range of foreign ministers around the world, German foreign minister, just got off the phone from the British foreign minister and others, as well as personalities in domestic Egyptian politics.

There is a general view that the attitude of the military is one that they want to set up these processes, they want to exit then formally from the - shall I say, the front stage of Egyptian political life. I'm sure there'll always be a key role for the military within Egyptian politics, but so far we believe there is a basis for confidence in the military executing this.

The other point I'd make, though, is it is a very tough order. You've just run through them as a list. One is constitutional reform, then a referendum to endorse that constitutional reform, then parliamentary elections, then presidential elections.

In six months, this is a very tall order. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some extension of the timetable slightly or to some extent. It's a very large amount of work.

ALI MOORE: So you wouldn't see that as cause for alarm if there wasn't a vote inside six months? I guess the point being that the military has a lot to lose in Egypt if there is a truly democratic state.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, take seriously each of the steps that I've just mentioned. These are quite challenging tasks.

Conducting a full national referendum on a change of the constitution, then bringing about parliamentary elections on the basis of new laws and the formation of new political parties to participate in that electoral process, then a presidential election. It's very difficult.

Do I foreshadow any sort of lengthy dilation of the process? Not really. I'm just asking people to be realistic about what will be deliverable by a certain day in a certain month. We should just make sure that the timetable for the process is elaborated soon by the Egyptian military, by the military council and/or by the interim cabinet and that is in turn adhered to.

ALI MOORE: What do you make of the man who's now in charge, defence minister Mohammed Tantawi? He's described as deeply conservative. And according to leaked US cables, he's as opposed to reform as Mubarak has been.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, consistent with other discussions I've had on various current affairs programs, I don't discuss the content or the accuracy of leaked American cables.

ALI MOORE: Are you familiar with Tantawi? He is defence minister, as we said. His views have obviously been fairly well-known.

KEVIN RUDD: Look, I've met President Mubarak, I've met the Egyptian foreign minister, I've not met Tantawi at all.

I've certainly read lots of assessments of the individual. I think it's very important to look at how the Egyptian military as a whole view their role in Egyptian political life. They see themselves I think as the guardians of the Egyptian state.

It's important to see their actions in recent days; that is, that when it came to the crunch, they sought to protect the rights of the Egyptian people to engage in peaceful protest, recognise that there was a call for fundamental democratic reform and they were embarked on that trajectory.

It's not going to be perfect. I think there's going to be all sorts of problems along the way. And we have to be very, very careful about each step along the way, including the emergence of political forces. And of course, a lot of our focus at present is on the precise nature of the Muslim Brotherhood.

ALI MOORE: Well, indeed, let me ask you about the Muslim Brotherhood. It is widely expected that in any free and fair election, they would do relatively well. Is that something that should be of concern? Can their stated aim of rule by Islamic law be reconciled with democratic principles?

KEVIN RUDD: It depends on our analysis right now of what is the Muslim Brotherhood today. Historically, we'd all have to be pretty sceptical about what the Muslim Brotherhood has been, given that it has given rise to a number of radical and militant Islamist organisations around the wider region.

Secondly, we should be mindful of the fact however, that in the 2005 parliamentary elections Muslim Brotherhood candidates - they were running as independent, not under the Muslim Brotherhood shingle - achieved about 20 per cent of the vote.

What precise platform they take to these parliamentary elections we'll be very careful to look at because this does size up as a new elected presence in the parliamentary processes of Egypt.

I'd make one final point about that: people talk about democratic elections and we should adhere to the universal principles of democracy and that has always been my view - on the assumption that those who participate in those democratic elections are themselves committed to the continuation of a democratic process. If I look at what happened in Iran recently, that has scarcely been the case.

ALI MOORE: Well, indeed, the question could be: do you think that Egypt could possibly follow Iran or follow the model of Iran, where there was a relatively secular provisional government which rapidly was replaced by a theocracy?

KEVIN RUDD: I believe we've got to watch the events in Egypt very carefully. We've just been talking about the Muslim Brotherhood.

Of course there are wider political forces alive in Egypt as well and there is a longstanding, broad secularist tradition and the young people that we've seen on the streets as well.

I think when we have the parliamentary process unfold, you'll see these various forces articulated. One of the political leaders that has been spoken about much in the media, Mr Amr Moussa, I spoke with him again earlier this evening, and he has indicated on the public record that he's considering running for the presidency.

I would expect that he would run on a broadly pluralist, secular campaign basis. This is still highly fluid, Ali, in terms of how it's going to unfold.

And whereas we celebrate the euphoria of the democratic transformation of Egypt through what occurred just a couple of days ago, each one of these steps is fraught with complexity, which is why we in the international community who you might call "Friends of Egypt" start providing as much international support for the processes which are about to unfold.

ALI MOORE: And of course it's not just in Egypt. We've talked a little about Iran and certainly we heard about that in Ben Knight's report; we've got Yemen, where the president's already said he won't seek another term, Algeria, Syria, Libya, Jordan, possibly even Saudi Arabia.

Is Egypt just the first of the major dominos to fall?

KEVIN RUDD: Well my view has always been and the Australian Government's view is that democracy is a universal principle. The cry for basic political freedom, individual political freedom is universal and in our view is not bound to a particular culture or to a particular time. That applies as much to our brothers and sisters in the Arab world and the Islamic world as to anywhere else.

ALI MOORE: So is that a yes - it possibly could be the first major domino?

KEVIN RUDD: I'm about to come to that. Of course individual national circumstances will differ in terms of the pace at which that democratic project is advanced.

Certainly Tunisia has happened. There's a lot of work to be done there as well on the ground. Egypt has happened so far, but we've just been through how complex that's going to be.

Elsewhere in the region, you're right to point to Yemen, you're right to point to Algeria, you're right to point to a number of other regional states, but you cannot suppress this fundamental call for human freedom. And I believe it's very important that countries such as Australia join voices with countries such as Indonesia, countries such as Turkey, in those two cases, modern countries from a Muslim tradition who are both secular democracies, to argue forcefully that this can be done in a responsible and proper way and giving voice to people without yielding to the forces of militant Islamism.

ALI MOORE: You mentioned Indonesia there and that allows me to get to just a couple of other issues, if I may. We are going to run out of time.

But has there been any formal diplomatic reaction to you over the Opposition's proposal to cut funding to Indonesian schools if they were in government?

KEVIN RUDD: You know something, Ali, I haven't had time to look, because I've been so preoccupied with what's been going on in the Middle East. I did notice in the Australian newspaper just I think two or three days ago a report from Indonesia, from Jakarta, which had one of our education officials - sorry, one of our embassy officials called in to see the Vice Minister of Education ...

ALI MOORE: You're not aware of that actually happening yourself? You haven't read the cables?

KEVIN RUDD: On that day, I'm responding to newspaper reports. I've got no advice from my officials that it didn't occur.

I'm being honest with you; I've been focused on other things, which is the stuff we've been talking about in this interview. But plainly, plainly, our friends in Indonesia would want to be confident that a program such as that would continue.

Why? Because it helps modernise the Indonesian education system, provide valuable resources, but from an Australian national interest point of view as well, it assists in the long-term process of bringing in a mainstream, increasingly secular curriculum into the Indonesian education system or through Islamic schools making sure that kids are given the opportunity of arithmetic and language in order to make the most of their lives and to provide as least space as possible for militant Islamist organisations.

ALI MOORE: Minister, one of the other issues you've obviously had to deal with has been health. And of course you were the subject ...

KEVIN RUDD: You're talking about health in Indonesia? (laughs)

ALI MOORE: No, I'm now talking about health reform in this country.

KEVIN RUDD: Oh, right. OK. Quick switch.

ALI MOORE: And you've been the subject of some leaks regarding you apparently storming out of Cabinet. You've dealt with those. You've made the point that you had to go and catch an aeroplane.

But at the same time you did say 'it's pretty sad when some folk go out there and tell basic untruths about the way our Cabinet meeting was conducted'. Those folk would have to be your Cabinet colleagues, wouldn't they?

KEVIN RUDD: You know something, Ali, I don't intend to contribute to this debate one bit. The key thing is that we have a major national health reform which the Prime Minister succeeded in concluding with the State premiers here in Canberra in the last 24 hours.

The Australian public want that reform, more hospital beds, more doctors, less waiting time in accident/emergency and they also want greater predictability about elective surgery. That's what we've been working on as a government for a number of years now. And that's what we should be focusing on in terms of the package which has just been agreed and its implementation. That's what people expect.

ALI MOORE: That said, Julia Gillard did make some comments about cabinet confidentiality tonight. Do you see them as a warning to your Cabinet colleagues?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, the Prime Minister is right to insist on maintaining the discipline of Cabinet. When I occupied that position myself, that was also not only my attitude, but the responsibility which comes with that office.

Cabinet government is important for the nation. On national security questions, some of which we've been touching on just now, but also in getting the best out of the system of government that we have to deliver better services for the Australian people, and fundamental national health and hospital reform of the type that has been negotiated in the last 24 hours is one major example of that.

ALI MOORE: Disunity is death.

KEVIN RUDD: Well, I'll let you use the poetry, Ali. I'm responding to a public policy question about the future of the Australian health system. People have been crying out for this to be done for a long, long time. The previous government pushed it to one side, all too hard; we rolled up our sleeves, had a go. We've produced this agreement and I think we should get on with implementing it.

ALI MOORE: Minister, many thanks for talking to Lateline tonight.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having me on the program.

END

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