Interview with Jane Hutcheon, ABC News 24

Subjects: Egypt, Health reform

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

12 February 2011

JANE HUTCHEON: A planned demonstration in Sydney today against Hosni Mubarak's rule will instead be a celebration of his downfall. Several rallies have been held in Sydney over the past 18 days in support of protesters in Egypt. Well, to discuss the reaction here in Australia to these historic events the Foreign Minister, Kevin Rudd joins me now in the studio.

Thanks very much for coming in Mr Rudd. First of all, your reaction to the news of the jubilation in Egypt that we've seen.

KEVIN RUDD: Well I just spoke to our Ambassador in Cairo an hour or two ago and she describes the events as something like a carnival of democracy at the moment. The streets are riotous as your viewers will see on the screen, there is absolute sense of ecstatic celebration of what's happened.

What's my view? My view is that the people of this most ancient civilisation truly deserve a most modern of democracies, and what we've seen is a celebration of peaceful protest, courageous protest — under considerable duress — ultimately cause the regime to conclude that the only path ahead was fundamental change.

JANE HUTCHEON: What about those steps towards democracy? The army says it will relinquish emergency rule after the celebrations are over, but Egypt is in effect ruled by the military at this moment.

KEVIN RUDD: What we have right now is an uncertain set of circumstances, again I've been speaking with our Ambassador about the precise processes which unfold from here. And there is great lack of clarity, let just be honest about that.

One, when the military council assume the powers of the presidency what precisely does that mean? Two, does it mean that the current Cabinet appointed by President Mubarak, former President Mubarak is still in force and still in power or not?

And thirdly, will an interim government be established; and I suppose the last question is what formal mechanism is established to bring about the transformation to democratic elections?

JANE HUTCHEON: They have scheduled elections for September, this is a massive protest for a country that is not familiar with democracy. Should those elections be postponed?

KEVIN RUDD: I think this is all a matter for the Egyptian people, but I think the mood that we detect from the people is they want to get on with the business.

Now you said before it's not within their tradition. Well, let's just look a little to our north here in Australia, a country where it was often said it was not within their tradition either, Indonesia.

Here is a country which in the end of the new order period under President Suhato engineered a fundamental democratic transformation. Sure it was bumpy, sure it was uneven, but look at Indonesia today. Therefore, there is a trajectory to the future here for our friends in the Muslim world. And Indonesia stands out as a good example, Turkey stands out as a good example, these things can be done.

JANE HUTCHEON: Do other autocratic leaders need to be worried after seeing these pictures?

KEVIN RUDD: No Jane, our view is democracy is a universal value . And I've never bought the idea that it is culture specific and that it is limited to a group of people with a particular culture at a particular time in history. It's a universal aspiration.

You've seen people from a vastly different civilisation tradition to the one which you and I know celebrating in the streets of Cairo about something intrinsic — which is the cry for freedom and the cry for freedom of political expression.

Therefore, to go to the core of your question around the Middle East, I think it's incumbent of all governments to take note of the people on the streets of Cairo, because this is a legitimate aspiration of all. Each country's circumstances are different, each country's circumstances are shaped and tailored by history, but there is a universal call here. And it's up to each country to shape and each people to shape their future path here.

JANE HUTCHEON: Not just the Middle East, perhaps China?

KEVIN RUDD: We have had a universal view on democracy and human rights and we've also said this is to be shaped ultimately by the peoples of those countries.

But we don't back away from the universal standard, that's why it doesn't matter which debate we enter into around the world, the underlying principle for us in defence of democracy and wider human rights considerations remains constant. But it's up to each people to decide their path ahead and we've seen the people of Egypt speak loudly, clearly, courageously, peacefully and effectively.

JANE HUTCHEON: If I can ask you while you're here about the healthcare reforms which are going to the States and Territories tomorrow...

KEVIN RUDD: I think there's a loop from the foreign to the domestic, is that right?

JANE HUTCHEON: Indeed. We have segued now, as they say.

KEVIN RUDD: That was an inelegant segue, but go ahead.

[Laughter]

JANE HUTCHEON: I apologise. You must be disappointed that your reforms have literally been thrown out? Did you storm out of a Cabinet meeting this week?

KEVIN RUDD: Well let me just say this, I think it's pretty sad when some folk go out there and tell basic untruths about the way in which our Cabinet meetings are conducted.

JANE HUTCHEON: What do you mean by that?

KEVIN RUDD: And the truth of it is this, the truth of it is this, when we discussed these matters in Cabinet most recently I left the Cabinet room, I think from memory, at about 7.25 in the evening to catch a 7.55 flight, the last one, from Canberra to Sydney because I had to be here for a speaking engagement the next morning. That's the fact, that's the truth, how others may choose to describe it is a matter for them.

JANE HUTCHEON: So you're saying it was an abrupt departure but you didn't storm out?

KEVIN RUDD: Of course not, it's just ridiculous. And all of our Cabinet and collegiate discussions are conducted professionally, as were these discussions.

So I think people are having a bit of a lend at the truth here and so I think it behoves us to reflect on these things honestly and truthfully. Cabinet's a place for good discussion, robust discussion, always has been, always will be. And that's as it should be.

On the wider question of health reforms I have long said that what this country needs is fundamental health and hospitals reform.

JANE HUTCHEON: Is that — is the country going to get that with the proposal that Julia Gillard has now — is now going pull.

KEVIN RUDD: What is delivered for the country hangs very much on the shoulders of the premiers when they sit down with the Prime Minister in the upcoming COAG meeting.

Can I also say this, I've done a few COAG meetings over the years, probably heading towards a dozen, and can I say they are always full of argy-bargy and they are tough and often difficult meetings. The Premiers share a large slice of responsibility. The Prime Minister goes into these discussions with the full backing of her Cabinet.

JANE HUTCHEON: Kevin Rudd, many thanks for that clarification, all the best.

KEVIN RUDD: Thank you.

END

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