Interview with Fran Kelly, ABC Radio National

Subject: Situation in Egypt

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

1 February 2011

FRAN KELLY: And we'll return now to the emerging story in Egypt. The Australian Federal Government has chartered a Qantas jet to evacuate Australian citizens stuck in Cairo. This follows the Egyptian military announcing this morning that it was not going to fire on anti-government protesters, even if ordered to do so. Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd joins us as I mentioned from Istanbul in Turkey.

Kevin Rudd, welcome to Breakfast.

KEVIN RUDD: Good morning Fran.

FRAN KELLY: Kevin Rudd, when will Australians be flying out of Cairo?

KEVIN RUDD: Tomorrow, Wednesday, Cairo time. Currently we have about 240 folk who are registered for the flight. Our staff are currently out at Cairo Airport, and they are engaged in the business of helping people either to confirm whether their booked commercial flights are still valid, though if there's any difficulty on that front, then to register them for travel on the charter aircraft which the Australian Government is funding, which is due in, through Qantas, tomorrow.

FRAN KELLY: So there's about 1100 Australians registered with the Embassy in Cairo I understand and yesterday the PM estimated an additional 2000 to 3000 Australians in Egypt, perhaps as tourists have not registered with the Embassy. One 747 is not going to do the job necessarily. Will more flights be available if necessary?

KEVIN RUDD: Well you point to a dilemma which we always face at times like this, which is the gap between the number of Australians who formally register with the Australian Embassy, as we recommend through Travel Safe and measures like that, and the actual number of Australians physically in the country. You're right, we began with about 800 registered Australians. In the last couple of days that's gone up by 300 or 400. But there is this wider estimate in terms of the number who are actually in the country.

On the other part of your question concerning charter flights we, the Australian Government, stand ready to provide continued assistance as is necessary, but we want to see how this first flight goes in terms of capacity, et cetera, on Wednesday and that's what our staff are focusing on at this stage.

FRAN KELLY: And what are you hearing from the consular staff at the airport about the situation there, because we've been hearing on Australian radio yesterday and this morning that it's pretty - been pretty rough there at the airport and they haven't been able to get the assistance they need. And even if that's now forthcoming there's, you know, a lack of food and just general co-ordination there. What are you hearing?

KEVIN RUDD: Well the bottom line is Cairo Airport is chaotic. That's just true in a situation like this - that is the case. We cannot wish it to be otherwise, because it's not just us evacuating Australians, it's a number of other countries seeking to do the same as well as individuals seeking to use the airport through their own private arrangements.

Secondly though, we have boosted our consular staff in the country, or are in the process of boosting it by another 20 staff. We've already been progressively increasing that in recent days and those staff have arrived.

One of the things that they are doing at Cairo Airport, apart from helping people onto commercial flights, and assisting with their bookings and/or helping them register for the charter aircraft that arrives on Wednesday, is to distribute food, water and other basic supports to enable people to be a little more comfortable in the immediate period ahead. But it's not a perfect situation. Remember this is a conflict zone and it's not pretty.

FRAN KELLY: What's your view, as Foreign Minister, about the Egyptian military's statement today that it will not fire on protesters? It describes the protest of these people as legitimate. In your view, in terms of the security situation, does that calm things, does that bode well?

KEVIN RUDD: That's an important statement by the Egyptian military. But in Egypt, I'm advised, the military are held in high regard by the Egyptian community and they are seen as having a particular status in the Arab world framework of the Egyptian state. In that sense they are regarded in a different light to other members of - let's call it the security establishment, the police and intelligence services for example. So if you've got a statement like that from the Egyptian military, it's encouraging. The only thing I'd point to, however, is that there are other arms of the Egyptian state which may not have exactly the same view; we do not know that.

But I simply go back to the continuing position, not just of Australia, but of other concerned governments which is one, to call upon the Egyptian Government to respond peacefully to peaceful protest activity by people in the streets. And two, to refrain from all forms of violence, because we are also concerned about reports we've received at the Embassy about a major increase in protest activity over the next 24 to 48 hour period.

FRAN KELLY: There's the plans for that million strong march later today, Australian time. What about the political implications of this military statement? In your view, what does that signal to the - to President Mubarak? Are his days numbered if his military is prepared to come out with a public statement like that?

KEVIN RUDD: Look in terms of the entrails of internal Egyptian politics, I don't think it's profitable Fran, for me as Foreign Minister, to speculate on what might or might not happen. We've simply got to deal with the realities as they manifest themselves on the ground and our number one priority, as has been the Prime Minister's, is to ensure that we do everything possible to underpin the safety of the Australians in the country.

On the board of political situation, you know, I'd simply say this. We believe that, and have believed for a long time, that there is a problem in terms of a global democratic deficit. This is a problem, also, when it comes to the Middle East in particular and the Arab states in particular and, therefore, the time has come for major political reform in Egypt itself.

So our position is very simple. We, together with other governments, are calling for that reform to occur; on the one hand, to respond positively to the legitimate aspirations of protesters. Secondly, calling upon the Egyptian authorities to exercise all restraint and deal peacefully with protesters who are currently on the streets.

FRAN KELLY: And minister, what does that mean, major political reform, because Hillary Clinton is voicing support for an orderly transition to a government that is responsive to the aspirations of the Egyptian people. Is the Australian Government calling for fresh elections and calling for President Hosni Mubarak to step aside and not be a part of that process?

KEVIN RUDD: We are not going to be prescriptive in detailed form on this question. It's quite plain, however, that there is widespread discontent in Egypt and has been for some time and this was clear to me when I visited Cairo only last month; to the manner in which the last parliamentary elections were conducted in Egypt. There was widespread discontent in terms of the manner in which those elections were conducted - you know, whether or not they were free and fair and what, therefore, was produced by way of a result.

So therefore, that's one of the political fractures in the overall mix in Egypt at present. But the bottom line is this; to deal with the fundamentals of political instability in Egypt at present, what is required is major reform, as opposed to measures which would simply be a simple re-entrenchment of the status quo.

FRAN KELLY: Is that the message you delivered when you spoke with President Mubarak last month?

KEVIN RUDD: When I was in Egypt only a month or so ago - and this - I'm talking about the first part of December, our conversation, our focus was primarily on the Middle East peace process and Egypt's perspective on that, as did my conversation with the Egyptian Foreign Minister, Foreign Minister Abu Al-Gheit.

Only two or three days ago, however, I did speak at some length with the Foreign Minister of Egypt in Addis Ababa, at the African Union. We had a bilateral on the day that the President later decided to remove his existing Cabinet.

And certainly I expressed a range of views to the Foreign Minister about the domestic political situation in Egypt and our observations from outside in terms of measures which needed to be embraced peacefully, in order to progress the political situation there.

FRAN KELLY: Kevin Rudd, thank you very much for joining us.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks Fran.

FRAN KELLY: Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd joining us there from Istanbul in Turkey. And there are reports this morning that opposition groups in Syria are attempting to initiate pro-democracy demonstrations.

And if you're after that DFAT emergency consular number in Australia, you might have more luck getting through there if you're in contact with someone who's stuck overseas. The number is 02 6261 3305, or from overseas of course, +61 2 6261 3305.

END

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