Interview by Mona Seweilam, Egyptian Television

Al Ghouri Center, Cairo, Egypt

On the occasion of the 60th anniversary celebrations of Australian-Egyptian relations

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

10 December 2010

Ms Seweilam: The Honourable Mr Kevin Rudd, the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Australia, thank you so much for joining me here in Cairo.

Mr Rudd: It's wonderful to be in Cairo. It's a beautiful city and we're here at the Al-Ghouri Center in Downtown Cairo. And it's a stunning building.

Ms Seweilam: you were speaking of [Egypt as] “Um Dunya” [mother of the world]. Do you speak Arabic?

Mr Rudd: Do you know something, my Arabic is non-existent. I speak Chinese and once you've learnt any language, your brain wears out.

Ms Seweilam: Well let me say thank you to the Australian Embassy in Cairo for choosing this beautiful place that dates back to 1505 and which is a center for dialogue between cultures, for celebrating 60 years of Australian - Egyptian diplomatic relations. You've just said this is the first visit to Egypt by an Australian Foreign Minister in a long time. How would you rate the Egyptian-Australian relationship?

Mr Rudd: It's a good relationship. We've been friends for at least 60 years. The basis of the friendship is that there are so many Egyptians who have made Australia their home. We have nearly half a million Arab Australians and tens of thousands of Egyptian-Arab Australians, and they have made a huge contribution to our country. On top of that, this is the first country in which we established a diplomatic mission anywhere in the Arab world back in 1950. So for us this has been our door to the Arab World. We have many friends in Egypt. It's a good relationship, strong economically, good politically, and increasingly we cooperate around the world.

Ms Seweilam: What about trade relations?

Mr Rudd: The trade relationship is getting stronger. It started from a small base. We've been reliable suppliers to Egypt for its wheat needs for many many decades. But we can do more.

One of the areas we can do more in, for example, is in what we call dry land agriculture. We have expertise in this area. Ours is a vast and in many places, dry continent. Egypt of course has some water challenges of its own. I believe this is an area where we can work together for our mutual benefit.

Ms Seweilam: What are the highlights of this visit sir?

Mr Rudd: I'm looking forward very much to spending some time with the Foreign Minister to review our total relationship and where we take it in the future.

This morning it was my great honour to meet the Secretary General of the Arab League here in Cairo and to discuss our common cooperation in support of the Arab Peace initiative and the Middle East Peace Process.

I'm also seeing President Mubarak while I'm here in Cairo. I'm looking forward very much to doing that.

I believe we can turn a new chapter in the Australia-Egypt relationship.

There's nothing wrong with the past but we can do much much more. And that's why I'm here.

Ms Seweilam: There are many projects here in Egypt, Australian projects, have you visited any or are you planning to visit any?

Mr Rudd: Not on this visit but I will be back during the course of 2011. One of the strong areas in Australia of course is mining. We have some five or six hundred mining projects spread right across the continent of Africa. We're also active here in Egypt in a very large gold mine. I think it's about a $300 million investment but there are other mining projects as well.

Ms Seweilam: Yes it's in the Eastern Desert, near Masa Alam.

Mr Rudd: That's true. And these companies are good at what they do but our interests are to always make sure that those projects are mutually beneficial for everybody. In Australia we've been mining for 150 years and we have experience of mining companies from all over the world in our country. So our challenge is to make sure that not only are our mining companies profitable, but they're also doing the right thing by the local country as well.

Ms Seweilam: Let's talk about nuclear disarmament. Egypt and Australia support efforts to achieve nuclear non-proliferation and disarmament. To what extent is a nuclear weapons free zone in the Middle East possible, or is it just a pipe dream considering Israel's ambiguity and Iran's position.

Mr Rudd: Well Australia has been active on nuclear non-proliferation for the last 40 years. We have been strong leaders for the negotiation of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. More broadly on disarmament, we led the negotiations on the Chemical Weapons Convention, we head the Australia Group within the UN, again on nuclear non-proliferation. So we have deep commitments in this area. Secondly, back in the 1960s, we had a debate about whether we should become a nuclear power but we thought that was not wise. Imagine if all the countries who were capable of becoming nuclear powers decided to do that; the world would become a very unsafe place. Instead we decided to back the non-proliferation treaty.

In this region the Middle East, we believe that all countries should be members of, and adhere to, the provisions of the NPT, and submit themselves to the International Atomic Energy Agency.

This means that our position is very clear: Israel should adhere to the non-proliferation treaty. Secondly, Iran, which currently, technically adheres to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, is now in violation of its provisions. So we call upon Iran to honour its commitments to the NPT, a position I made clear yesterday in Indonesia when I met with Foreign Minister Mottaki of Iran and had a discussion with him. Thirdly, we also have supported the proposal for a conference on a Nuclear Weapons Free Zone in the Middle East, scheduled for 2012.

We therefore, have a positive, supportive approach to these initiatives, we recognise the difficulties but we believe its far better for us to try than simply to throw our hands in the air and say that nothing can be done.

Ms Seweilam: I have a question that is also about nuclear energy. A ten-year consultancy contract worth 175 million US dollars was awarded to an Australian company in 2009. The contract with the Egyptian Nuclear Power Plant Authority is for consultancy on Egypt's first nuclear power plant. Would you like to comment on this?

Mr Rudd: Well these sorts of projects they are always done commercially, we assume responsibly.

We have no problems at all with countries developing their civil nuclear energy needs and Australia also is the holder of 40 per cent of the world's uranium. We are the largest source of uranium in the world. So in other forms of technical cooperation on the nuclear front, we are more than happy to work with our friends in Egypt and elsewhere. We are good at what we do and we assume that this project will be done cooperatively and responsively.

Ms Seweilam: Mr. Foreign Minister, Egypt-Australia relations build on matters of regional peace and security, particularly those pertaining to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. What do you think of Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit's recent call for a two or three page framework agreement to be offered by the international community to both parties telling them come forward and negotiate on such basis and at a specific time.

Mr Rudd: I look forward to very much meeting the Foreign Minister while I'm here. We had a good discussion when we met at another meeting in Brussels. That's when he suggested I come to Cairo - I'm here. So I'm looking forward to a discussion with him.

Ms Seweilam: It's nice to have you.

Mr Rudd: It's good to be here, it's a great city and it's a great country.

Secondly, I'll listen carefully to what the Minister has to say on his proposal and I'll need to understand it in detail.

On the Middle East Peace Process in general, let me say a few things.

One is, I don't believe its time for politics and business as usual. I listened carefully to remarks the other day by King Abdullah of Jordan, while I was attending a Conference on the Middle East in Bahrain. It's quite plain we cannot allow this things to go on and on and on without a result.

We in Australia have long supported a two-state solution. An independent and secure Israel and an independent and secure Palestine for the Palestinian people. But we believe it's time this process achieved real progress. We're concerned about the lack of progress and one of the reasons I'm here is to talk to our Arab friends, and when I go to Israel I'll talk to our Israeli friends, about the need to make real progress. I am concerned that time is starting to run out, therefore I want to see real progress on this longstanding problem, and I hope to be working with all our friends in the region to that effect.

Ms Seweilam: You've described Afghanistan as “terrorism central” and you've supported Australian military involvement in Afghanistan. With the imminent US withdrawal from Afghanistan set for July 2011, do you think that the US strategy in Afghanistan is working? That terrorism is being curbed?

Mr Rudd: Well when you're dealing with Afghanistan you're dealing with some very big challenges.

Of course we know where this began which was the events of 2001, September 11, and the events of the Taliban regime which supported Al Qaeda.

Al Qaeda is not a friend of moderate Arab countries; it's not a friend of moderate Christian countries; it's not a friend of moderate countries anywhere in the world, whatever their faith.

So, we committed back in 2001 to getting rid of that regime together with 43 countries around the world.

Secondly we've committed to helping build a new Afghanistan. In Australia, we've committed to doing two or three things. In one province called Oruzgan, we're training the Afghan army and the Afghan National Police to take over, over the next couple of years and certainly by the date specified by President Obama, by 2014, and certainly by President Karzai, by that date as well. We're also participating in big development projects in the province - universal primary health care, universal education, access for kids and for girls as well as basic infrastructure. We're doing those things as well. And on top of that we're supporting political reconciliation talks within the province, to build up the capacity and the political depth of the provincial government.

It's a tough fight. It's a hard fight.

But I believe if you were to take an opinion poll of the Afghan people and ask if they prefer the current situation or the one under the Taliban, I think they'd prefer the current situation. But we need to do much more and we are doing so in close collaboration with our Muslim brothers and sisters in Afghanistan. We will only be there as long as they wish us to be there, and of course Australians don't like being away from home for too long.

Ms Seweilam: Pro-Wikileaks demonstrations were held across Australia, they are calling on the Australian Government to respect freedom of expression - your comments sir?

Mr Rudd: Well our attitude is very simple on this question.

Firstly, the Australian Federal Police are investigating whether or not this individual has committed any action which would cause him to be charged under Australian criminal law. That investigation is underway.

Secondly, if they find that there is the basis for a charge, it is then referred independently to our Director of Public Prosecutions for them to make a decision on whether or not a prosecution should be mounted.

And then thirdly it would be a matter for our courts whether or not Mr Assange was proven to have any particular responsibility under the law through a normal legal process. That is what we are doing as a government.

In London where Mr Assange is at present, I've made it absolutely clear as Foreign Minister of Australia, that Mr Assange should have the same support, the same consular services, his welfare, his well-being, his access to legal resources as any other Australian citizen anywhere in the world.

We do this for many Australians who find themselves in legal difficulties in other countries, we'll do the same for him as well. So that is our approach and I believe that is the responsible approach and that is the one we are implementing.

Ms Seweilam: But what do you think of Wikileaks itself, is freedom of expression really at stake here?

Mr Rudd: Well on the unauthorized release of classified information, of course all governments in the world would have a common view - that diplomatic communications should remain confidential. That's the business of diplomacy, to remain confidential. Therefore we do not support the release of any such of information.

However, it is then a matter for the legal processes to determine what legal responsibility arises for Mr Assange or anybody else in relation to the dissemination of this material. That's our view and that is the view that we are implementing when it comes to his individual interests.

But I reiterate, Mr Assange will receive the same support as any other Australian anywhere in the world who finds themselves in legal difficulty. Our consular offices attended in support of him in his appearance in court in London recently, we've indicated in letters that we will provide consular visits to him while he is in custody, we have confirmed whether or not he has adequate legal representation. These are the things we do for all Australian citizens.

Ms Seweilam: But why did you say that America is to blame, instead of Assange, sir?

Mr Rudd: Well let me be very plain about that.

The first thing is who within the overall system within the United States or elsewhere, is responsible for the theft of this classified information from the American system. That's the first question. The second is, who is then responsible, legally, for the dissemination of that information around the world. These are two sets of legal questions, which need to be properly tested. And as I've said repeatedly, that should be done thoroughly, and independently, so that the facts can be determined through normal, legal processes.

Ms Seweilam: You were criticized in these leaks, what's your reaction to this?

Mr Rudd: Well I think I join the ranks of fifty or one hundred Foreign Ministers around the world, and Presidents and Prime Ministers as well. I don't think there's anything particularly remarkable about that. I think you've got to have broad shoulders in politics. You can take criticism, public or private.

We don't comment on the content or the accuracy of any of these diplomatic cables, but my colleagues from around the world, their attitude like mine is that we've got to get on with the job.

Today we have challenges on the Korean peninsula, which go to the deep questions of war and peace, these are very important. Here in the Middle East, you're looking at how you can provide new impetus to a peace process that's in real difficulty. That's the business which diplomacy needs to be addressing today. The questions of history can be left to others to write about.

Ms Seweilam: Ending on a lighter note, Tutankhamun is going to be in Melbourne very soon. What's your reaction to this?

Mr Rudd: Well when King Tut arrives in Melbourne, I'll try and arrange for him to be given Australian citizenship.

Ms Seweilam: Really?

Mr Rudd: Well, for the time of his visit. We promise to send him back.

But can I say to all of our friends in Egypt how honoured we are to have this extraordinary exhibition of ancient artifacts from the time of Tutankhamen's reign. Many of us who are students in Australia have studied Egyptian history at high school. I'm one of them; I'm fascinated. Pharaonic history is extraordinary - the depth, the breadth, the antiquity, Ramses, Amunhotep - it's just an extraordinary stretch of history. So for Tutankhamen, you'll have a line a mile long of Australians wanting to see this so thank you to our friends in Egypt for making it possible.

Ms Seweilam: Thank you sir, and I hear this is going to be the last time Tutankhamen will be outside Egypt.

Mr Rudd: Is that right?

Ms Seweilam: Mr Zahi Hawass informed me.

Mr Rudd: Well I've promised him we'll send him back, but I'll probably send him back with an Australian passport in case he wants to visit Australia again.

Ms Seweilam: Thank you so much for this interview sir.

Mr Rudd: It's been a pleasure.

ENDS

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