Transcript of interview with Linda Mottram, ABC Radio Canberra

Subjects: East Asia Summit, Regional architecture, Burma, China

Transcript, E&OE, proof only

28 October 2010

QUESTION: Okay, well if we can start with the regional architecture aspect, the East Asia Summit meeting at the end of this week, as part of the ASEAN process, appears to be emerging as that new piece of regional architecture that you've often talked about, that the region needs, do you see it as the linchpin event, the linchpin organisation forum, if you like?

KEVIN RUDD: Australia very much sees the emergence of the East Asian Summit as a major development in our region's overall political security and economic architecture. It's what Australia's been arguing for in recent years, we've called it an Asia Pacific community, but what was added is substance, one, a body which was capable of having a wide mandate across security, economic and other matters, two, that it would include the United States, and three, that it would meet at Summit level.

Those three elements are now alive, with the decision of the United States, and of course Russia, to enter the East Asia Summit. This is a good development for Australia.

QUESTION: Yes. Now at the same time, the ASEAN Defence Ministers' meeting has expanded as well, to meet in a similar format, but at the Defence Ministers' level, you've got APEC of course, well established, but a different format, do all of those things need to somehow come together and work together, and if so, in order to meet the needs that you've described, and if so, how is that going to happen?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, I think when we're dealing with complex questions of foreign policy and international economic policy, we can't be excessively overwhelmed by intellectual neatness, would that it was so, but guess what? It's not.

The key thing is this, to make sure that in our region, we have institutions which are capable of creating a culture and a practice of cooperation, as opposed to a culture and practice of conflict, that's what our region needs. And in the past, at the political and security level, we haven't had such an institution with America in it. That's why this is so important for Australia.

QUESTION: Yes. At the political security level indeed, but the habits of cooperation in Asia are really embedded in economic matters, aren't they, shared economic interests, does that need to be also embedded in the East Asia Summit process, or whatever this ends up being?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, if you look at the original declaration for the East Asia Summit, at Kuala Lumpur I think some five years ago, its mandate is broad, it covers political insecurity matters, it covers economic matters, it covers other areas of cooperation as well, so therefore the evolution of its agenda over time, proceeds from that original document.

What is new, however, is that we now have America in, and for this body to be meeting at summit level. Hilary Clinton will be attending this one at Hanoi, and of course President Obama the next one in Indonesia next year. Again this is a good development for Australia.

As you said before, in the past, what we've had are the habits of cooperation spreading through the agency of APEC effectively, on the economic and trade front, on the political and security front, frankly our regional arrangements remain somewhat brittle, that's why this institution is so important for the future.

QUESTION: So is this institution then being tested by issues like South China Sea, East Sea, China's much more muscular approach, which is to be expected of course, as it grows economically, is that being tested because we don't have the ideal formula yet for dealing with the political insecurity issue?

KEVIN RUDD: Well what we need in the region is an institution with wide enough membership, and wide enough mandate, to deal with any security challenges which arise in the future, and on the way through, to build what's called in the literature, confidence and security-building measures.

Let me give you one example. How in the future can we as countries in the region, for example, have our armed forces, have our emergency services agencies cooperate more effectively encountering natural disasters within the region? That is simply a matter of practical commonsense, unfortunately a lot of it doesn't happen at present, and it needs to, given the spate of natural disasters.

But here's the advantage, we then have our security, our emergency services and our armed forces, working together on common projects that of itself begins to become a confidence and security-building measure.

The Europeans have been doing this for the last half of a century, in our part of the world, we haven't, that's why it's necessary, given that this, our region, will be the region for the 21st century.

QUESTION: At the current - the ASEAN meetings that are beginning now, and which will become the EAS on the weekend, Burma has come up again as a significant issue of course, so close to the elections in Burma, that's not surprising, how difficult an issue do you think Burma is for the region, for ASEAN in particular, of the region more widely?

KEVIN RUDD: I think for the members of ASEAN it has been a constant challenge, certainly in my discussions in recent years, with leaders and ministers from South East Asian countries, Burma represents for them a continuing, real challenge, the absence of democratic norms, within Burma, and not consistent with where most within the region want to go, over time.

Secondly, the upcoming elections still represent something which falls far short of democratic norms, it's pretty basic when you've got still dozens of political parties unable to participate in the election, 2000 political prisoners still in jail, when you have Aung San Suu Kyi still under house arrest, when you have no international monitors of the election, when you have no foreign media presence, I would suggest that this probably falls short of most peoples' idea of a democratic norm.

For us therefore in Australia, this is a major challenge for the region, for the future, and we've got to continue to apply maximal diplomatic pressure to the regime in Rangoon, to improve.

QUESTION: Does that mean expanding sanctions on the regime?

KEVIN RUDD: It means applying all practical measures to bring about concerted pressure on the regime. Of course not everyone agrees with that approach. Within our wider region that's simply a fact.

But I believe through concerted diplomatic pressure, through the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, where of course Burma is a member, more broadly through regional countries such as ourselves and others, we can continue to apply pressure into the future.

We cannot simply accept what's happened in Burma in recent times as simply normal. It's not.

And therefore we cannot simply lay down the baton as if all that can be done has been done. Of course at the same time we in Australia continue to provide humanitarian aid to the people of Burma, particularly in the areas of maternal and child health, where Burma frankly has the worst numbers in all of south-east Asia. And no young kid - no young baby - no little child deserves an early death because they happen to live under a non-democratic regime.

QUESTION: Can I ask you about China, you're off to China very shortly - along with several other of your colleagues. The Education Minister I think, the Trade Minister, the Treasurer - it's a very concerted effort. Does this indicate some level of concern about the relationship still?

KEVIN RUDD: This is simply a normal continuation of Australia's good relationship with the People's Republic of China. If you're asking questions about why there's a concentration of visits now, it may be informed by the fact we have a Parliament where we all have to attend for votes on every single day. When the Parliament's not in session, if you've got to get somewhere, then you tend to go at the same time.

On the broader relationship with China, however, in the middle of the year we had an important visit from the Vice President of China, Mr Xi Jinping who has recently been confirmed as vice-chairman of the Central Military Commission. That was an important visit which extended over several days where the fundamental importance of the relationship both to Beijing and Canberra was reaffirmed, and where Xi Jinping himself underlined in his own terms how this comprehensive relationship is in fact a model for others.

QUESTION: Xi Jinping indeed has been elevated, as you say, which indicates that he's likely to be the next leader of China in 2012. Does that - what do you think that means? I mean does that signal continuing - does it signal stability in the leadership process in China? Do you see the prospect for change? This is a new generation, he's come from a slightly different background to what we're used to.

KEVIN RUDD: Well remember in China which remains a one-party state, there has been an evolution of leaders since the death of Deng Xiaoping and before that. That was quite a long time ago. And we've been through a succession of smooth leadership changes - or relatively smooth leadership changes - in China. A continuation of a policy of openness in their economic engagement with the outside world. And a continuation of domestic economic reform.

Remember, for Australia also, this is our number one trading partner. Therefore it's an important relationship for us. We will continue to engage the Chinese at all levels. Of course there are areas of disagreement as well. But I believe by pursuing a balanced relationship with Beijing, we maximise our interests, we maximise our common engagement with the Chinese while not walking away from the areas on which we do have policy disagreements.

QUESTION: You yourself have faced some criticism over the handling of the China relationship when you were Prime Minister. How difficult is the relationship? I mean as you say there'll be differences and some of the differences are very obvious for all to see. But how hard is it to manage it and keep it on an even keel.

KEVIN RUDD: Well let's be very blunt about this. Much of the commentariat out there has two boxes through which they analyse the Australia-China relationship. One, either you are kowtowing, or two, you are in a state of incipient conflict. Frankly a more textured and reasoned analysis of any relationship with China suggests there is a third way to this, and the third way is what we describe as a comprehensive political and economic relationship where we maximise our common interest, maximise our common engagements in the region and through institutions like the G20, while not walking away from the areas in which we do have disagreements including in human rights.

That is the right approach. So I would say to the inevitable commentary as it warms up for this visit to China and any subsequent visit to China it's not either conflict or kowtow. There is an appropriate third way to deal with our friends in Beijing, which as I said is balanced, textured, understands our points of difference, but maximises the extraordinary range of interests we also have in common.

QUESTION: And can I ask you just finally, China's military rise is causing a lot of concern in the region. Will you raise that with your counterparts? And how concerned are you about that?

KEVIN RUDD: Well I won't go to the detail of my proposed internal discussions with Chinese leaders and officials. What I would say is that we have a collective interest across east Asia and the west Pacific for maximum transparency in military budgets, in military operations, and in military manoeuvres.

In fact, going back to the question of the East Asia Summit, how do we evolve that institution in the future to bring about those sort of confidence and security building measures?

That I think is an important challenge which lies ahead. The relationship's in good order. There'll always be bumps in the road. And as I said before we intend to continue to pursue a balanced approach. But that will not engender 100 per cent of applause from either side of the agenda.

QUESTION: Kevin Rudd, thanks for your time.

KEVIN RUDD: It's a pleasure.

END

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