Interview on Sky
Subjects: Stephen Smith, Minister for Foreign Affairs, joins Kieran Gilbert to discuss the release of the Federal Government's counter terrorism white paper.
Transcript, proof copy E&OE
23 February 2010
KIERAN GILBERT: The Counter Terrorism White Paper warns of an increased risk from people born or raised in Australia, a home-grown threat. How big is that risk?
STEPHEN SMITH: Since the last Counter Terrorism White Paper, which was 2004-2005, we've seen two features emerge.
Firstly, whilst we have had some success against Al Qaeda and its affiliates, which remains the single, central most significant threat, we have seen Al Qaeda evolve - dangers now in Somalia and Yemen. And that underlines one of the points the Paper makes, which is regrettably, terrorism and counter terrorism will be a permanent feature for the foreseeable future.
The second feature we've found, which is the one you draw attention to - which we first saw in the United Kingdom - is the so-called home-grown terrorists, where disgruntled, alienated individuals, locally, where they live, are seduced effectively by the global international jihad.
So we have to watch that very carefully.
In our own case, for example, we've had, since 2001, if you make September 2001 the reference point, we've had nearly 40 arrests in Australia for counter-terrorism purposes or for terrorism offences.
About 20 convictions for terrorist offences and about 40 people have had their passports confiscated or denied for terrorist reasons.
So whilst the numbers are small in the Australian context, it only takes one to get through to do a lot of damage to Australian citizens.
KIERAN GILBERT: So you're pointing to the number of people that have been prosecuted in the cases that we know about, but how big is the broader threat? How many people are we talking about on the extremist fringe?
STEPHEN SMITH: We're not able, if you like, to quantify that. What we do know is that the threat is persistent and it is continuing, and also, it's evolving.
We see, for example, with Al Qaeda and its affiliates, while we've had some success in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and in south-east Asia, particularly Indonesia, we're now seeing threats emerge in Yemen, in Somalia, so-called Al Qaeda in the peninsula.
KIERAN GILBERT: But what about the threat domestically? Do you have a sense of the number you're talking about?
STEPHEN SMITH: We're not proposing to quantify it. What we do know is that that is a danger.
We saw at first in the United Kingdom the so-called home-grown terrorist threat. That is now being added to because we've also seen the terrorist groups evolving their techniques - not just the sophisticated planning, complicated sophisticated planning like September 11, but seducing the so-called lone wolf who does maximum damage in his or her community.
KIERAN GILBERT: Yeah, well you're also talking about a $70 million program over four years, biometric checks to take fingerprints and other, I suppose, identifying detail from visa applicants from suspect countries, the top ten suspect countries.
As Foreign Minister you know that this is going to be a sensitive issue for the countries who end up on the list and it seems almost inevitable that Indonesia will be one of those countries, an important partner of Australia, but the place where the biggest attacks against Australians have occurred, so it seems almost obvious that they will be on the list. That will be a difficult issue for you to manage.
STEPHEN SMITH: I'm not proposing to indicate the countries that we have in mind. We'll do that publicly when we roll out the program.
KIERAN GILBERT: But how could Indonesia not be one, it's the place where the biggest attacks have occurred?
STEPHEN SMITH: There's more than one country where Australians have been killed in terrorist attacks since 2001. We've had over 100 Australians killed in terrorist attacks throughout the world, so there's more than one country concerned here.
I'm not proposing to identify a particular country and people shouldn't assume or proceed on the basis of believing they know which countries will be involved.
KIERAN GILBERT: But they're not going to like it, are they, if they're on the list?
STEPHEN SMITH: What will occur will be a roll out of a significantly enhanced visa vetting system and we will announce the countries as we roll out the program. It will require biometric data for visa applications, finger prints, facial imaging and the like and the reason for doing that is obvious. We will, in the course of doing that, cooperate with our partners, in particular the United Kingdom, and we'll be using similar equipment that they use but it will minimise the prospect of identity fraud and terrorists getting through.
KIERAN GILBERT: But it will also require diplomacy won't it, from you to try and smooth this out?
STEPHEN SMITH: Obviously as we roll the program out we will be in consultation with the governments of the countries concerned. Whether that requires my involvement or is done by officials, time will tell. But we will do that in a sensible, orderly way.
KIERAN GILBERT: Because you wouldn't think it would go down well though in a country if you say, if we say to them look you are the supplier of the greatest suspects?
STEPHEN SMITH: We work very closely with a number of countries on counter-terrorist matters.
We currently have between 10 and 15 memorandums of understanding on counter terrorism with a range of countries and very many countries throughout our region and the world understand that this is a threat that we all face.
So we work cooperatively with a range of countries. Indonesia has in very many respects been the most successful country in the last half a dozen years in terms of chasing down and bringing to trial terrorists.
So we'll work closely with whatever countries are involved, but our priority has to be the protection of Australian citizens both offshore and onshore.
KIERAN GILBERT: Is Australia a bigger target because of our involvement in Afghanistan?
STEPHEN SMITH: We are a target irrespective of what we do throughout the world. We know we are a target and we know the threat is real and the threat is there both for Australian citizens offshore but also for Australians onshore. That's why we have to be very vigilant about these matters. That's why we believe it's appropriate to bring the White Paper forward when we…
KIERAN GILBERT: But Labor argued that because of Iraq we were a bigger threat. Doesn't it mean that because of Afghanistan we are also at a bigger risk of attack?
STEPHEN SMITH: Irrespective of our involvement in International Security Assistance Force activity, or peacekeeping - or peace bringing throughout the world, we know that Australia and Australian citizens are at risk and that's why we're taking the precautions that we are.
KIERAN GILBERT: Minister, just finally, what about the timing of this? It's come amid the problems for Peter Garrett, the ongoing problems for him over the insulation program. Some would suggest that the timing is very fortunate for you of the release of this as you try and distract from Peter Garrett's woes.
STEPHEN SMITH: Well if they suggest that, they would be wrong. That's the first point.
Secondly, we committed ourselves when the Prime Minister released the National Security Statement to a Counter Terrorism White Paper within 12 months. Technically that was December of last year.
In the last quarter of last year, the National Security Committee gave this very concentrated attention. We came to the conclusion just before the end of last year that we needed more time to carefully consider the emerging threats in Yemen and Somalia and of course Christmas Day we saw the so-called Christmas Day bomber.
We wanted to get it right and have the most up to date assessments. But I make a more general point: terrorism and counter terrorism is going to, regrettably, be with us as an enduring feature of Australian and international life. And whether it's the Government, whether it's the Opposition, whether it's the Parliament, whether it's the Australian community, they can carry a terrorism white paper and the domestic political event of the day, that won't be a problem for them.
This Government, future Australian Governments will regrettably be dealing with counter terrorism matters on an ongoing basis because the threat is persistent, it's real, and it's evolving and we have to be vigilant and adopt and adapt as time goes by.
KIERAN GILBERT: Stephen Smith, thanks for your time.
STEPHEN SMITH: Thank you.
[END]
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