Transcript E&OE
25 October 2009
Interview with Barrie Cassidy on Insiders - ABC television
Subjects: Cooperation with Indonesia, Afghanistan, Stern Hu detention.
BARRIE CASSIDY: To talk about issues arising from the East Asia Summit and other foreign policy matters we're joined now from Perth by the Minister for Foreign Affairs Stephen Smith.
Minister, good morning and welcome.
STEPHEN SMITH: Good morning Barrie.
BARRIE CASSIDY: I'll start with Indonesia. You've had previous agreements with Indonesia on asylum seekers; the Lombok Agreement just recently. What are the new elements now being discussed?
STEPHEN SMITH: We have the Lombok Agreement which sets the modern relationship between Australia and Indonesia. And that of course has as one of its aspects people smuggling or people movement.
We also of course have the Bali Process which Australia and Indonesia co-chair, which is the regional institutional organisation that we use to manage these issues.
What we've discussed with President Yudhoyono and what I've also discussed with former Indonesian Foreign Minister Wirajuda is we need to go further. We need to do more. We're facing greater challenges with the greater push factors. But also the people smugglers are becoming more sophisticated, adopting different techniques.
So we've got to do more together to address those challenges and they're the discussions which are currently underway between Australian officials and Indonesian officials.
BARRIE CASSIDY: But when you say do more, what are you pushing? Specifically what is new in what you're pushing?
STEPHEN SMITH: What we are looking at is we need to have in our view greater cooperation so far as intelligence sharing is concerned, greater cooperation so far as disruption to people smugglers' efforts are concerned.
But also we don't want to leave Indonesia bearing all of this burden by itself. So we have indicated to Indonesia that we're very happy to have conversations about how we can be of even more assistance so far as detention of asylum seekers is concerned, assistance on the processing of asylum seekers, and assistance on settlement and re-settlement.
But also, importantly, we're looking at what more assistance we can be to the two relevant international institutions operating in this area, in Indonesia and in our region: the United Nations High Commission for Refugees and the International Organization for Migration.
Now of course we are giving, and the previous Government gave, assistance to Indonesia and to these two international institutions. We're looking at what more we can do to meet this heightened challenge.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Now if all of this works, if it's successful there's some down side here for the asylum seekers. They'll have to wait many more years to be processed.
STEPHEN SMITH: I'm not sure that's right Barrie. I've seen suggestions that there are some people in Indonesia who have been waiting for years and the facts of that as I understand it, these are people who have had their asylum seeker or their refugee claim rejected.
Now yes it is the case that Indonesia is not a party to the Refugee Convention as Australia is. But in 2002 they passed a directive which said that anyone who goes to Indonesia who is, and who claims asylum has to be treated in accordance with the United Nations High Commission for Refugee processes, and treated with and dealt by and processed by the UNHCR. So people who claim asylum in Indonesia get the same processes so far as the UNHCR is concerned and that's very important.
And we want to make sure of course that anyone who is detained in Indonesia is detained in reasonable and appropriate circumstances. That's why we're looking at what greater assistance we can give Indonesia and the UNHCR and the International Organization for Migration to assist on detention and processing and settlement matters.
BARRIE CASSIDY: So that might mean that they will be kept in better conditions because the other down side of course is the evidence suggests that many of them will be housed in far worse conditions than they would have been housed in in Australia.
STEPHEN SMITH: Well again the advice I have is that, for example, women and children are housed in community facilities rather than in detention centres and that's a good thing.
But we do want to make sure that people who are detained in Indonesia are kept in appropriate conditions. And that's why in the past governments of both political persuasions in Australia have given assistance in this respect and why we are very open to do more. That's part of the conversation that we are in discussion with so far as Indonesia is concerned.
But it's not just those matters. Importantly we think we can do more so far as our agencies are concerned in sharing information, sharing intelligence and in becoming even more effective so far as disruption of people smugglers is concerned.
BARRIE CASSIDY: As part of those discussions are you urging the Indonesians to sign the UN Refugee Convention?
STEPHEN SMITH: Well that's a matter for Indonesia. There are a range of things which, where Indonesia has a different position or a different posture than Australia. That's understandable and understood.
I think the important thing is that since 2002, as I said earlier, there's been a directive which ensures that anyone in Indonesia or who comes to Indonesia or goes to Indonesia who claims asylum is treated in accordance with the United Nations High Commission for Refugee processes consistent with the convention principles.
And that's obviously a very good thing and we've welcomed that for the period of time that that has been in effect.
BARRIE CASSIDY: It does seem though the approach you're taking is a more convenient one for Australia but it's not a more humane one for the asylum seekers.
STEPHEN SMITH: I'm not sure that's right Barrie. What we're trying to do here is to recognise and respond to the fact that we've got significant push factors from Afghanistan, the Afghanistan/Pakistan area, and more recently now from Sri Lanka after the end of the civil war in Sri Lanka. These are push factors which are impacting not just on Australia but on Indonesia, on our region. And that's why when the Prime Minister and I were in Indonesia recently we spoke not just to President Yudhoyono but we also spoke to Prime Minister Najib and my counterpart Foreign Minister Anifah from Malaysia. We spoke to Prime Minister Lee from Singapore. And in the course of the East Asia Summit the Prime Minister will be speaking to his counter-parts throughout the region.
And it's also why earlier this year Indonesia and Australia made sure that the Bali process which deals with these matters on a regional basis reconvened at ministerial level.
So this is a problem that we all face. It's not something that we want to leave Indonesia in the lurch over. But we do have to address it on a regional basis and that is why we're proceeding down the path that we are, which is making sure that our borders in Australia are subject to maximum protection but also making sure that we are liaising very closely with our neighbours in the transit countries.
And we've seen historically that is the most effective way of trying to ensure that this issue is managed so far as Australia is concerned.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Now Indonesia has a new Foreign Minister. What do you know about him and what will he bring to the relationship?
STEPHEN SMITH: If I can just firstly compliment former Foreign Minister Hassan Wirajuda on a very substantial contribution to Australia Indonesia relations. I think history will judge him a very fine minister and contributor to his country.
The new Foreign Minister is well known to Australia. He's an ANU graduate. He's generally known to us as Marty. We know him well. I have met him on a number of occasions before.
He's going to be I think a substantial contributor. He has been one of the graduates if you like from Hassan Wirajuda's time or tenure as Foreign Minister, and his rise as Foreign Minister coincides with Indonesia's rise as not just a regional influence but now emerging as a significant global influence through the G20.
So we see a new Foreign Minister for Indonesia. We very much regard him as a friend of Australia. We are looking very much forward to working closely with him as we see in the course of this decade and beyond, Indonesia becoming even more significant in regional and global affairs.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Well there is a report this weekend that President Yudhoyono will visit Australia next month and may indeed address the Federal Parliament. Are you able to confirm that?
STEPHEN SMITH: There is a standing invitation to the President to visit Australia. The Prime Minister issued that invitation to him again when he was congratulating him on his election victory a month or so ago. He repeated the invitation when we met in Jakarta recently.
It's not for me to announce the President of Indonesia's visit or his diary scheduling.
He is always welcome in Australia and if his visit were to coincide with a sitting of the Parliament it would be very appropriate for him the address the Parliament. Again reflecting not just the strength of the relationship and the warmth of the relationship between Australia and Indonesia, which is at an all time high and never been better, but again reflecting Indonesia's emergence as a prominent regional and global influence.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Now on Afghanistan NATO has now endorsed General McChrystal's strategy in Afghanistan which demands of course more international troops.
What's your reading of that? Do you think that NATO is ready to provide more troops? And what's the impact on Australia?
STEPHEN SMITH: I think there are two aspects here of the McChrystal review that we need to deal with carefully and in a sense separately.
First is the McChrystal review so far as the strategy is concerned and secondly what resources if any additional resources are required or may be required to effect that strategy.
And President Obama has been taking that step by step as NATO did when their Defence Ministers met in the last day or two.
On the strategy, I think importantly the strategy refines the Riedel strategy which President Obama adopted when he came to office. It's got a couple of additional elements to it which are very important.
One is a focus on training. It's absolutely essential that we put the Afghan Army and the Afghan Police and the Afghan institutions in a position to manage these affairs themselves and hence the focus on training. But also McChrystal recommends a much stronger military and civilian contribution, the need to enhance what we are doing on the civilian side.
And also he is very strong on his recommendations and his strong view that the military there have to work much more closely with the Afghan people that we've got to win hearts and mind not just combat or military incidents or episodes. Australia very strongly agrees with that analysis.
BARRIE CASSIDY: And given Australia embraces that strategy what does that mean then in terms of troop numbers? If they were to commit more troop numbers would Australia in effect, would there be moral pressure on Australia to do more?
STEPHEN SMITH: No, because we have made it absolutely crystal clear that given the last five months or so we increased our contribution from 1100 to 1550, that we're neither expecting to receive a request for an additional contribution. Because we have already made this year a substantial increased contribution, some 40 per cent increased contribution. We are, and we're not expecting to, we certainly haven't received a request and we're not expect to receive one.
We of course welcome the fact that the NATO Defence Ministers have indicated that some of them are in the market for an increased contribution. That's a good thing.
What we are happy to contemplate and I've made this clear in the past, is additional contribution on the civilian assistance side, on the civilian capacity building and development assistance side. And that's one of the things that we continue to have a very close look at. But we are open to that suggestion.
BARRIE CASSIDY: And how important is it to Australia that the Dutch hang in there?
STEPHEN SMITH: Whether the Dutch stay in a military sense is a matter for them. They have indicated to their own Parliament that they are proposing to withdraw their military contribution. Whether they change that posture or position is a matter for the Dutch.
We encourage the Dutch to continue a presence of some form in Oruzgan Province as civilian capacity building presence.
The Dutch currently lead in Oruzgan province. They do a very good job. They're great partners of Australia.
What Australia has made very clear is that we are not in a position and we won't lead in Oruzgan if and when the Dutch leave. And so we've made it clear. I have to the United States when I was last in Washington to Secretary of Defense Gates, to Security Advisor Jones that Australia won't lead.
So if the Dutch leave which is their current indication, then the leadership in Oruzgan will need to be taken up either by the United States or by a senior NATO member.
And that's something that Australia believes needs to be addressed urgently. Defence Minister Faulkner has made that point. I have made that point. And once President Obama has resolved issues of the McChrystal review and any additional resources, then I'm sure very quickly we'll come to decisions on the leadership in Oruzgan Province.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Alright, just finally the Prime Minister has had discussions with the Chinese Premier Wen and he made some reference yesterday to consular matters that are being discussed he said between the Foreign Ministers.
What are the - and this is regarding Stern Hu and Stern Hu is still in detention. What are the consular matters that are causing you most concern?
STEPHEN SMITH: We're treating this matter now primarily as a consular case. The Chinese officially advised in the last week or so that they were formally extending the period of investigation for a month.
We have been having regular consular visits checking on his wellbeing and that has been occurring effectively on a monthly basis.
We continue to urge the Chinese authorities to bring this matter to a conclusion as quickly as possible to expedite it but they have formally indicated to us that they will extend the investigation period for another month.
But it's a good thing that the Prime Minister has met with Premier Wen Jiabao in the margins of the East Asian Summit. He also had a brief meeting with President Hu Jintao in the margins of Pittsburgh. And we are look forward in the near future to Vice Premier Li visiting Australia.
So whilst we've had some significant tensions in the relationship, we believe very much that in the last month or so things are getting back very much to business as usual and that's a very good thing with a very important relationship.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Foreign Minister Stephen Smith thanks for your time this morning.
STEPHEN SMITH: Thanks Barrie. Thanks very much.
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